too young to train?

[lucifersdad]

i was just wondering at what age schools take students and at what age, if they've graded properly and they are of a good standard, you think children should be aloud to take their dan grades??

i know this might annoy some people but i teach kids from 4 years old and my youngest black belt is 11, is this too young? my instructor/ association don't think so, what about you?

 

[Kope]

My school's program will accept anyone age 5 and up, provided they will pay attention in class and not require constant reprimands on behavior.

Our youngest BB is around 13.

As long as the standards are equally high, I see no problem with it.

I know we have a lot of kids and adults drop out in the last year or so leading up to black -- they can't make the cut. We have very few youth bb's compared to adult bb's. (not that we have that many adults -- maybe 10 or so .. but only 2 kids that I am aware of).

 

[Mike Clarke]

This is just my opinion [but it's based on almost 30 years of karate training].
You can't teach Martial Arts to children as they don't have the mind to understand the things requierd.
You can teach them movements and play at being little samurai, but that is not Martial Arts, it's something else.
Martial Arts are serious and as such training should only be undertaken by mature people [not all adults are mature by the way].
Who would want to put children under the kind of stress a student has to endure is beyond me.
Having kids in the dojo/dojang/kwoon etc may well be the only way some schools can stay open, but having them there for such reasons is not Martial Arts either, it's basic commerce.

Mike.

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Mike Clarke
This is just my opinion [but it's based on almost 30 years of karate training].
You can't teach Martial Arts to children as they don't have the mind to understand the things requierd.
You can teach them movements and play at being little samurai, but that is not Martial Arts, it's something else.
Martial Arts are serious and as such training should only be undertaken by mature people [not all adults are mature by the way].
Who would want to put children under the kind of stress a student has to endure is beyond me.
Having kids in the dojo/dojang/kwoon etc may well be the only way some schools can stay open, but having them there for such reasons is not Martial Arts either, it's basic commerce.

Mike.

Maybe this is true for the combat side of the arts Mike, but what about the more esoteric aspects that the Martial Arts can bring?

What about teaching the child self confidence through martial arts philosophy?

What about self respect and respect for others?

Self discipline, loyalty, and a few other principles that children can learn, all go toward creating a better kind of black belt.

Having said that I think the whole idea of a junior black belt relly has to be assessed by different requirements to an adult BB. By that I mean with the adult we have requirements pertaining to technical knowledge, kata knowledge, ie quantity, quality of execution and application knowledge. Physical fitness to get through the gradings etc.
With children, it should be more about attitiude, and preparedness to learn new things. Not so much about physical ability....

Just my A$0.02 worth.

--Dave

:asian:

 

[cali_tkdbruin]

Originally posted by Kope
My school's program will accept anyone age 5 and up, provided they will pay attention in class and not require constant reprimands on behavior.

Our youngest BB is around 13.

As long as the standards are equally high, I see no problem with it.

I know we have a lot of kids and adults drop out in the last year or so leading up to black -- they can't make the cut. We have very few youth bb's compared to adult bb's. (not that we have that many adults -- maybe 10 or so .. but only 2 kids that I am aware of).

Where I currently train the minimum age is also 5 years old, however, not many kids or adults for that matter, stick around long enough to reach the dan ranks. When they find out what's involved including all of the hard work, sweat and effort required, they decide to find other activities to keep them occupied.

My daughter, who's currently 13, was only recently promoted to BLACK (1st Poom), but, she's been training for years and is pretty dedicated to the Art. I'm very proud of her...

 

[moromoro]

karate and TKD have always been popular with the kids
for its discipline and fun

what age is the minimum for a black belt in either arts? i know it may vary for each ryu?
but is there a age where it is just simply too young to recieve a shodan or 1st poom.............

thanks

terry

 

[Aegis]

Persoanlly the idea of an 11 year old black belt is totally ridiculous to me. An 11 year old might be able to do all the techniques, but can you honestly tell me that they really understand the art? Besides, they still have puberty to contend with, during which their body will change shape, their mind will alter and consequentially they may well find themselves unable to perform the techniques correctly any more. Assuming you don't revoke rank once it is awarded, this would leave you with a very 3rd rate black belt who actually has a legitimate grade.

I would personally never award a black to anyone under the age of 16 under any circumstances. On the other hand, I have no right to award any grade but a yellow in Judo, so it's not a situation likely to come up any time soon.

 

[arnisador]

I've heard that traditionally, in Okinawan, karate training wasn't started until during- or post-puberty, say 12 or so. I don't know if it's true or so.

 

[lucifersdad]

i dont know about were you guys train but in my svhool we have a slightly modified syllabus for kids,
for example instead of learning knife defences we teach them where to go if you get lost, to find a person in authority, how to make a reverse charge call home etc. etc,
this is basically the kids version of the "defences" side of training, i dont see the point in teaching an 8 year old how to deal with a drunk dude in a bar, but i do see the point in teaching them how to do "break-aways" if they are grabbed, you see my point?

appart from anything else all junior grades are retaken at 17 in our association with the full adult syllabus and beleive me its a baptism of fire to be marked on 20 armlocks 20 choke holds 20 knife defences when you havnt had the constant training as you would if you went through the grades as a senior, so for anyone to make the junior/senior crosover is quite an acheivment( trust me, i know its hard! i had to do it!).

and as for saying a junior cannot "understand" the art, what do you want? 8 year old trained killers, or well behaved well educated young people? if we can teach kids how to be good peiople now, maybe we wont have to put such an enphasis on gun and knife defences later on?
please tell me im intruiged

 

[Aegis]

Understanding an art does not imply that you're a killer.

Memorising armlocks and chokes is easy.

Knife defences are harder, especially if done at speed with a wooden/metal training knife.

What else do they have to demonstrate? Because to be perfectly honest, that sounds like something closer to a green belt grading in my style of Jujutsu.

Edit: I suppose it all depends on what you consider a black belt to mean. In my style, a black belt is a rather senior member of the association, instead of the philosophy of a lot of arts (the one that states that a black belt has only just mastered the basics)

 

[Kope]

My particular school has the philosophy that there are basic and advanced forms.

A 1st degree black belt has demonstrated enough knowledge of all the basic forms that they can teach them.

A 1st degree black belt is still about 20 years away from sifu's level of training

 

[cali_tkdbruin]

Originally posted by Kope
My particular school has the philosophy that there are basic and advanced forms.

A 1st degree black belt has demonstrated enough knowledge of all the basic forms that they can teach them.

A 1st degree black belt is still about 20 years away from sifu's level of training

Exactly! All first dan BLACK really signifies is that one has mastered just the basic techniques of their Art. I've been told time and time again that 1st degree BLACK in reality is the true beginning of one's martial arts training. When you reach 1st degree BLACK what you've done is just set the foundation of the house. Your next step is to start building up from that foundation... :asian:

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by cali_tkdbruin
Exactly! All first dan BLACK really signifies is that one has mastered just the basic techniques of their Art. I've been told time and time again that 1st degree BLACK in reality is the true beginning of one's martial arts training. When you reach 1st degree BLACK what you've done is just set the foundation of the house. Your next step is to start building up from that foundation... :asian:

As someones signature on Martial Talk says, Up to black belt you are learning the basics. After black belt you start learning how to use the basics.

Or something to that effect anyway

--Dave

:asian:

 

[Mike Clarke]

Dave,
I think I get your drift , but I'm still of the opinion that "Martial" arts can't be taught to a child.
What you spoke of, I call "Good Parenting!"

If one thinks of martial arts as a passtime, hobby, or something they do for 'enjoyment', then I say they are not training in Martial Arts at all. Training is too challenging to be 'enjoyable'. Too demanding to be a 'hobby', and too bloody dangerous to be a 'passtime'.

As a young yudansha I use to throw up [with nerves] on the way to training because I knew what was coming. Coming home without being exhausted and often badly brused was impossible.
My students are recieving the same education I had, no worse and no easier.

Kids can and do train in martial arts 'type' activities, but that is not the same as training in Martial Arts.
The truth is that for many instructors out there, if they didn't have a room full of kids to look after, they'ed have no students at all!

As for the philosophical side of the Arts? I'm not sure the majority of those teaching have studied their art enough to pass on such information? Philosophy is best learnt [like everything else in my opinion] through personal experience and not by reading books or quoting from some associations hand book.

In almost 30 years, I've met few who have a philosophy that grew from their own experiences. Most folk confuse information with knowledge and knowledge with wisdom. The first two you can get from outside, but the last you have to grow from within.
And you can't do that with just a few years of mediocre experiences to call on.

Anyway, this is all just my humble 2c worth.

Mike.

 

[lucifersdad]

Originally posted by Aegis

What else do they have to demonstrate? Because to be perfectly honest, that sounds like something closer to a green belt grading in my style of Jujutsu.
QUOTE]

it may sound like a green belt ju jutsu grading, as far as the defences side looks, but ive only said a small part of what they do for there practical application section of the test.
please remember this is from a pradomanatly(SP?) striking style and although there is "grappling" type areas of wadoryu it still focus's mainly on striking, especially at low grade (1st dan and below) and only when these basics have been acheived do students start learning intracasies such as why you do that foot movement or why you use 2 hands to preform a block that could be done with one etc.
apart from anything else why get tangled up with locks that take a long time to be able to apply in a real situation when students can learn to deal with an opponent quickly with strikes?
im not saying grappling isnt valid, i love the stuff and have been training in jujutsu and vale tudo for years but alot of my students come to me with self defence/confidence problems and its part of there training to increase there confidence so teaching them effective technique at lower grades is part of this.
gichin funakoshi said in his 20 precepts you must first train the mind then the body........

 

[chufeng]

I will train children, but not until they are at least seven years old.

Their bodies are not ready for the kind of training we will ask them to do...more importantly, they do not have the ability to concentrate for more than 20 minutes...to train someone younger is a set-up for a frustrated student who may choose never to take up martial arts again...

Even with that said, I'd never entertain promoting someone to black-belt unless he/she could meet the requirements for that grade...I don't see that happening in someone less than 16 years old...even that is a stretch.

I've had several children train with me...none of them lasted past the first promotion..."too much work" was the usual excuse.

My youngest son (10 years old) really wants to start training...
He currently has a "PortaCath" in his right chest which connects to his right internal jugular vein...I won't allow him to train until that is out...

Sure he could train in kata, but I see how seriously he takes his guitar training (not seriously enough...he's too busy being a kid) and the longer I wait to get him started, the more likely he will be to seriously pursue REAL martial training...

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Aegis]

Originally posted by lucifersdad
it may sound like a green belt ju jutsu grading, as far as the defences side looks, but ive only said a small part of what they do for there practical application section of the test.
please remember this is from a pradomanatly(SP?) striking style [/B]

You made it sound like there were only the locks and knife defences, which really didn't sound like much. So how much is actually on the shodan test?

As an aside, I always find it strange that people consider shodan to be a "low-grade". Even in Judo I always considered a shodan to be a high grade. Nidan and above was just great. And to be perfectly honest I liked it that way...

 

[lucifersdad]

apart from the knife work locks etc. allstudents grading for shodan have to complete:-

1000 word written thesis on karate
20 question written exam

then,
stage 1

front kick, lunge punch
front kick, reverse punch
front kick leaning front punch
front kick, leaning reverse puch
front kick, 3 chain punches
front kick, double punch
front kick
roundhouse kick
side thrust kick
back kick
inner creasent kick
groin snap kick
2 level/jumping front kick
side kick
spinning hook kick
twisting/ inside roundhouse kick
hook kick
1 step front kick
1 step roundhouse kick
1 step side thrust kick
1 step spinning hook kick
1 step twisting kick
snap punch
side stepping snap punch
crossed arm bloke upper/lower area
ridge hand

stage 2 (renraku waza)

front kick snap punch
front kick reverse punch
f/kick, side thrust kick, reverse punch
f/kick, s t/kick, r h/kick
f/kick, s t/kick, one step roundhouse kick, reverse punch
1 step roundhouse kick, reverse punch, defensive step
front kick, side thrust kick, back kick, reverse punch
side thrust kick, back kick, snap punch, reverse punch
front kick(body) roundhouse kick (head) same leg

and,
snap punch, reverse punch, front kick, side stepping snap punch, roundhouse kick

stage 3 (kata)

tokiyoko
pinan nidan
pinan shodan
pinan sandan
pinan yodan
pinan godan
kushanku
naihanchi
chinto

stage 4 (defences)
demonstrate,
knife defences
traditional blocks from attack
arm locks
immobalising holds
chokes
attack on 20 kyusho's
show 8 points of balance

stage 5 (tamai shiwara)

10 tiles
8 tiles on fire
1 brick


so theres our dan syllabus and except stage 4, our juniors do the lot side by side with the adults! still think its unfair for juniors to hold dan grades?
how does this dan grade syllabus compare to everyone elses out there?, just out of intrest

 

[tshadowchaser]

I'm split in my thinking on this one.
I feel that children that are brought up in and around the training area are quicker to learn the movements and even understand the underlying ideas of the movements. They will perhaps be more limber and better disiplined because of the influence.
However, you can not force a child to learn and expect good results. If the child is not truely interested they won't learn. If they do not have some disipline and an understanding of what is expected they should not be in the school.
As for young black belts I am against it. I dont belive in jr. black belts and I dont belive any 12 year old should be a 4th or 5th degree.
It really breaks done to how mature the child is and what they are expected to learn, sport, or war art.

 

[lucifersdad]

i do agree to some degree.
if a child can train properly, and give the dedication needed i cant see a problem with them attaining dan grade.
however, when you say about a 12 year old attaining 4th or 5th dan, thats just stupid(the grade, not your comment)
i hope you are exagerating!
arent you?