When is someone "Too young" for MA or for a BB for that matter?

[dortiz]

Well the simple answer is as young as the school is taking. Original Karate was dumbed down to Shotokan for the Japanese school system and then more sportified for TKD. A lot of Todays Sport TKD program not only works for these kids but is specifically targeting them to join.
It seems odd to discuss if it OK when it is the entire premis of the operation.
Its not the same between different styles because WTF Sport TKD is totally designed for and wants to do this.

 

[Fing Fang Foom]

Ms. Tez Sorry bout the confusion (great lady then)
Ty for the links, I will check them out...




Sorry to bring up operation urgent fury, just following orders you know
....now I have to run to get ready for our independance day celebration... (oops, that may still be a sore spot to some brits as well) LOL

jk

 

[Tez3]

Of course martial arts is about more than fighting, I've said that but the core of it is. The by product isn't that you have learned to defend yourself, that's what martial arts is about, the by products are the other things you get from training. I do think people need to understand that.

I agree it teaches chldren a great deal and adults for that matter but to get the best from training one has to be of an age to understand whats going on, to be be able to listen and absorb what the instructor is saying. Toddlers can't do this.

Much is made of being a black belt but how many non martial arts parents realise that is the start of martial arts learning in earnest not just an end gain in it's self? As MJS says, the value of the black belt has been devalued by young children being given them after a couple of years because they know all the steps of patterns/kata etc.

Teaching children martial arts is important, good instruction is vital, understanding how to teach children is paramount but the most important thing is that everyone understands it's a journey, hopefully a lifelong one where one can constantly strive to understand, improve and grow. I doubt one lifetime is enough. The short term gain of a blackbelt is not what people should be striving for, it should be beyond that. Of course it's a huge thrill to gain your BB, it should be something amazing not just handed to you because you've done the requisite two years training.

 

[Tez3]

Ms. Tez Sorry bout the confusion (great lady then)
Ty for the links, I will check them out...




Sorry to bring up operation urgent fury, just following orders you know
....now I have to run to get ready for our independance day celebration... (oops, that may still be a sore spot to some brits as well) LOL

jk

LOL, have a good day, it doesn't upset Brits - after all we invented America
I'm just watching the Tour de France (8 Americans in it btw) before going off on night shift again. enjoying our discussion though!

 

[Fing Fang Foom]

Enjoyin' it too Tez

Btw, what Anime is your avatar from??

 

[Tez3]

Enjoyin' it too Tez

Btw, what Anime is your avatar from??

It's Cheza from Wolf's Rain.

 

[Fing Fang Foom]

Too funny, my wife and older daughter love that one.
My 15yo even has the wolf's rain soundtrack downloaded on her ipod

 

[Manny]

My two mexican cenbts. For me the good age to start in MA is 10-12 years old and the age to reach BB status will be 16 years old or more.

Manny

 

[Gorilla]

I am going to pull back up my Youth Black Belt Thread...It caused allot of controversy

 

[Fing Fang Foom]

Here is an interesting article/advertisment that was published this week in a local 'community flyer' that I got in my mailbox. The free flyer has community events in it, and also has advertisments. This is part of an advertisement from a local do jang. (not ours, but in the same town):




KOREAN EAGLE TAEKWONDO DEMONSTRATION TEAM

This unique and awesomely entertaining Taekwondo team hail from Seoul Korea's Dongdemoongu district...
The Korean Eagles are Korea's premier, children's Martial Arts All black belt demonstration/performance team, headed by grandmasters Jung Hwan Jin and Chang Joo Park.....
The demonstration and show put on by these children, ages 6-16, is second to none!



So,
Does this mean there are "mcdojos" even in Seoul? :lol"

 

[Tez3]

Here is an interesting article/advertisment that was published this week in a local 'community flyer' that I got in my mailbox. The free flyer has community events in it, and also has advertisments. This is part of an advertisement from a local do jang. (not ours, but in the same town):




KOREAN EAGLE TAEKWONDO DEMONSTRATION TEAM

This unique and awesomely entertaining Taekwondo team hail from Seoul Korea's Dongdemoongu district...
The Korean Eagles are Korea's premier, children's Martial Arts All black belt demonstration/performance team, headed by grandmasters Jung Hwan Jin and Chang Joo Park.....
The demonstration and show put on by these children, ages 6-16, is second to none!



So,
Does this mean there are "mcdojos" even in Seoul? :lol"

Especially in Seoul! Koreans like to make money as much as the next man.


These demo teams tend to be very good ...at gymnastics. Can't fault their athleticism but can they fight?

 

[ATC]

...These demo teams tend to be very good ...at gymnastics. Can't fault their athleticism but can they fight?

If fighting is the only requirement to having a BB then, yes kids can fight and then should have a black belt.

No kids cannot fight and beat adults as the size and weight gap is too great. But so is an adult that is 105 lbs. vs. and adult that is 195 lbs or greater.

Many kids can perform better than many adults. The only difference is age and weight. You can have a kid start MA training at 4 years old and be one awsome fighter by age 12. So does that mean an adult that starts at 20 and gets his BB at 24 better than the kid?

I can tell you now that there are some 14 year old Muay Thai kids that can kick the snot out of quite a few adults. These kids all start fighting as young as 6. By the time they are 12 they have 100's of fights under their belts and are as hard as stone already.

No they don't fight adults but relitive to their age and weight they are just as good as any adult and can fight.

 

[Tez3]

If fighting is the only requirement to having a BB then, yes kids can fight and then should have a black belt.

No kids cannot fight and beat adults as the size and weight gap is too great. But so is an adult that is 105 lbs. vs. and adult that is 195 lbs or greater.

Many kids can perform better than many adults. The only difference is age and weight. You can have a kid start MA training at 4 years old and be one awsome fighter by age 12. So does that mean an adult that starts at 20 and gets his BB at 24 better than the kid?

I can tell you now that there are some 14 year old Muay Thai kids that can kick the snot out of quite a few adults. These kids all start fighting as young as 6. By the time they are 12 they have 100's of fights under their belts and are as hard as stone already.

No they don't fight adults but relitive to their age and weight they are just as good as any adult and can fight.

That doesn't make it a good thing, they are fighting for money and to help their families, the girls often go into prostitution. it's a whole different thing in Thailand, there they are finished in their 20s battered and broken. My instructor and our fighters are regularly in Thailand training so know the nasty truth of child fighters there, not something you'd want encouraged here.

The word you use 'perform' sums it up, these children perform their martial arts, as such young ages they really can't be taken seriously as black belts.

 

[ATC]

That doesn't make it a good thing, they are fighting for money and to help their families, the girls often go into prostitution. it's a whole different thing in Thailand, there they are finished in their 20s battered and broken. My instructor and our fighters are regularly in Thailand training so know the nasty truth of child fighters there, not something you'd want encouraged here.

The word you use 'perform' sums it up, these children perform their martial arts, as such young ages they really can't be taken seriously as black belts.

Sadly all you say is true. But still good or bad they are on par with any adult in terms of ability and knowledge.

The span of usefullness is still the same. Most are washed up by the age 20. Just as most adults that start at 20 are washed up by 35 or so. It is all relitive.

 

[Tez3]

Sadly all you say is true. But still good or bad they are on par with any adult in terms of ability and knowledge.

The span of usefullness is still the same. Most are washed up by the age 20. Just as most adults that start at 20 are washed up by 35 or so. It is all relitive.

But that's MT, it's the same for boxing, we are talking about martial arts ( yes I know MT is a martial arts but it's also a sport) where there is far greater depth and responsiblilty to be taken by a black belt. MT fighters are only expected to fight and win ,that's all that's expected of the those kids as well as the adults.There's little knowledge there other than how to fight MT. There's a lot of desperation though driving them.

Black belts are expected to have depth and judgement when sparring with lower grades for example, work out ways of teaching someone in difficulty and they should above all be able to defend themselves against anyone, they may come off hurt but they should be able to at least have the experience and the techniques to make a good fist of it. A black belt should know when it's time to fight or run, youngsters tend to think that as a 4th Dan at 10 they can take the world on because they can touch spar anyone in their club/school.
Young children don't have the maturity to be responsible black belts and frankly why should we burden them with it anyway? Why not just let them enjoy training and learning without the pressure to perform and to get gradings. Who can honestly say that it's the children who are driving themselves to these higher grades, that if left alone to train without any adult mentioning gradings etc they wouldn't be happier? why put this need to achieve more than the next kid onto children. Lifes hard enough as it is don't put more pressure on them before they have to cope with it.

 

[ATC]

But that's MT, it's the same for boxing, we are talking about martial arts ( yes I know MT is a martial arts but it's also a sport) where there is far greater depth and responsiblilty to be taken by a black belt. MT fighters are only expected to fight and win ,that's all that's expected of the those kids as well as the adults.There's little knowledge there other than how to fight MT. There's a lot of desperation though driving them.

Black belts are expected to have depth and judgement when sparring with lower grades for example, work out ways of teaching someone in difficulty and they should above all be able to defend themselves against anyone, they may come off hurt but they should be able to at least have the experience and the techniques to make a good fist of it. A black belt should know when it's time to fight or run, youngsters tend to think that as a 4th Dan at 10 they can take the world on because they can touch spar anyone in their club/school.
Young children don't have the maturity to be responsible black belts and frankly why should we burden them with it anyway? Why not just let them enjoy training and learning without the pressure to perform and to get gradings. Who can honestly say that it's the children who are driving themselves to these higher grades, that if left alone to train without any adult mentioning gradings etc they wouldn't be happier? why put this need to achieve more than the next kid onto children. Lifes hard enough as it is don't put more pressure on them before they have to cope with it.

I think that kids can do all that you just mentioned. There is nothing there stated that is to difficult for a 10 year old. I know many adults that think they can take on the world because they touch sparr in the school. That is due to poor teaching is all.

I don't see any add pressure in learning a Martial Art for a kid than there is for an adult. They train and then test to see if what they learned is retained and understood. You pass or your fail. Kids take test everyday in life. School is exactly that.

Kids do many things better than adults. Their brians are wired to learn at a faster rate than ours (adults). As adults we actually learn slower than kids. It is just how nature is.

 

[Tez3]

I think that kids can do all that you just mentioned. There is nothing there stated that is to difficult for a 10 year old. I know many adults that think they can take on the world because they touch sparr in the school. That is due to poor teaching is all.

I don't see any add pressure in learning a Martial Art for a kid than there is for an adult. They train and then test to see if what they learned is retained and understood. You pass or your fail. Kids take test everyday in life. School is exactly that.

Kids do many things better than adults. Their brians are wired to learn at a faster rate than ours (adults). As adults we actually learn slower than kids. It is just how nature is.

You speak for your own place but you know as well as I do there are a great many places where the pressure is coming from the parents. I had two sets of parents take their children out because we wouldn't put them in for a grading we know they wouldn't pass, not even marginally as they had taken weeks off. One mother was furious with me and got abusive, (she shouldn't have done that really I threw her off the camp lol. . . Crown property) her little darling had the right she said to get her next belt, I actually said she could have whatever belt she liked out of our stock even black because the only person she was hurting was her daughter.

I'd argue that children are only better at one aspect of martial arts than adults as they are more flexible and athlethic which is fine if your martial art is a 'sport' one but I really don't think children are mature enough to be black belts under at least 17. Children however many dan grades they have can't teach an adults class, can you imagine a 6 year old 3rd Dan teaching my MMA students? and before you say that MMA is different we do karate, TKD,Judo and BJJ etc etc in that and the Dan grade should be able to teach what they are graded in.

The deeper understanding isn't there that requires maturity, something no kid of 5 or 6 is going to have, it's a farce having Dan grades of that age.
Do the youngest have the ability to work out the Bunkai of their patterns/katas? Do they know the Bunkai of their patterns/katas even? Do they truly have the gravitas to teach at five years old with a black belt tied round their waist, what would they teach? gymnastic movements or true SD and fighting? Can they teach for two hours on end, running through a syllabus acording to the grades in the class? If you have never done that I wouldn't be quick to say a child could.

You will never convince me a child can be a proper black belt nor that a child should even get a black belt let alone multiple Dan grades.

 

[ATC]

You speak for your own place but you know as well as I do there are a great many places where the pressure is coming from the parents. I had two sets of parents take their children out because we wouldn't put them in for a grading we know they wouldn't pass, not even marginally as they had taken weeks off. One mother was furious with me and got abusive, (she shouldn't have done that really I threw her off the camp lol. . . Crown property) her little darling had the right she said to get her next belt, I actually said she could have whatever belt she liked out of our stock even black because the only person she was hurting was her daughter.

I'd argue that children are only better at one aspect of martial arts than adults as they are more flexible and athlethic which is fine if your martial art is a 'sport' one but I really don't think children are mature enough to be black belts under at least 17. Children however many dan grades they have can't teach an adults class, can you imagine a 6 year old 3rd Dan teaching my MMA students? and before you say that MMA is different we do karate, TKD,Judo and BJJ etc etc in that and the Dan grade should be able to teach what they are graded in.

The deeper understanding isn't there that requires maturity, something no kid of 5 or 6 is going to have, it's a farce having Dan grades of that age.
Do the youngest have the ability to work out the Bunkai of their patterns/katas? Do they know the Bunkai of their patterns/katas even? Do they truly have the gravitas to teach at five years old with a black belt tied round their waist, what would they teach? gymnastic movements or true SD and fighting? Can they teach for two hours on end, running through a syllabus acording to the grades in the class? If you have never done that I wouldn't be quick to say a child could.

You will never convince me a child can be a proper black belt nor that a child should even get a black belt let alone multiple Dan grades.

Well pressure from the parents is something I cannot control and agree with you that they need to keep out of what they do not know.

I would also agree that a 6 year old could not teach a class nor could they even assist. I would even go as far as saying that a 10 year old could not teach a class either. However a 10 year old BB (Poom) can assist and do it quite well.

Also if I saw a 6 year old 3rd Dan or even (poom) I would run.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

You speak for your own place but you know as well as I do there are a great many places where the pressure is coming from the parents. I had two sets of parents take their children out because we wouldn't put them in for a grading we know they wouldn't pass, not even marginally as they had taken weeks off. One mother was furious with me and got abusive, (she shouldn't have done that really I threw her off the camp lol. . . Crown property) her little darling had the right she said to get her next belt, I actually said she could have whatever belt she liked out of our stock even black because the only person she was hurting was her daughter.

I'd argue that children are only better at one aspect of martial arts than adults as they are more flexible and athlethic which is fine if your martial art is a 'sport' one but I really don't think children are mature enough to be black belts under at least 17. Children however many dan grades they have can't teach an adults class, can you imagine a 6 year old 3rd Dan teaching my MMA students? and before you say that MMA is different we do karate, TKD,Judo and BJJ etc etc in that and the Dan grade should be able to teach what they are graded in.

The deeper understanding isn't there that requires maturity, something no kid of 5 or 6 is going to have, it's a farce having Dan grades of that age.
Do the youngest have the ability to work out the Bunkai of their patterns/katas? Do they know the Bunkai of their patterns/katas even? Do they truly have the gravitas to teach at five years old with a black belt tied round their waist, what would they teach? gymnastic movements or true SD and fighting? Can they teach for two hours on end, running through a syllabus acording to the grades in the class? If you have never done that I wouldn't be quick to say a child could.

You will never convince me a child can be a proper black belt nor that a child should even get a black belt let alone multiple Dan grades.

I think talking about a 3rd dan 6 year old is going to extremes. At my club (and a lot would be the same) it takes 6 years from the day you get a black belt to the day you get a 3rd dan, and it is another 3 or 4 years on top of that to get a balck belt in the first place. So even if a kid started at 5 years old they would not be a black belt until about 9 and then a 3rd dan at 15. Also, most clubs I know of require an instructor to have a 4th dan so the kid would be 19 years old minimum before they could regularly teach a class. I know there are mcdojos and belt factories out there but for the sake of this debate we really should be focusing on reputable clubs, not clubs where some kid can attain a 3rd dan by the time they are 6 years old.

 

[Fing Fang Foom]

Agree or disagree with things all of you say is not the point, the point is it is enjoyable to read all of your bright and honest opinions! Thanks for the entertainment