To those who don't care about belt rank

[MJS]

And why wouldn't somebody who works hard to develop high skill pursue high rank? Provided that they train in a system that uses rank, I would think they want to see the results of their skill and hard work which comes in the form of rank, at least if they're training under a sensei that I would train under (somebody who makes their students earn their ranks instead of handing them out or selling them). For such a person to not pursue rank, it would be like a boyscout who works hard to live up to the scout oath and the scout law and to be a good scout but who doesn't pursue rank in boyscouts. True, you can be a good scout and not have a high rank such as Eagle, but it makes sense that somebody who works hard to be a good scout would want to be an Eagle Scout, that would be the proper result of somebody being a good scout.

As geezer said, why not just stop worrying about rank. I further agree, that the arts are not the boyscouts. And believe it or not, there are some people that just don't care about it. They're more interested in training, learning the art, and getting good at it. I've said it a million times, and I'll say it a million more...the belt is not an indicator of skill. Just because someone wears a BB, doesn't mean they're worthy of that. The same can be said for a green belt, a blue or purple. I have my 4th degree Black in Kenpo. However, I'm no longer active in the art, ie: training under a teacher, but I still work my techs. I mean, after a certain time, rank advancement is simply time in grade. Once you reach a certain rank, there are no more techs, or kata. And who really needs more anyways? By the time you reach the upper BB levels, you should have quite a wide array of material to work on. Is learning 1 more tech going to make or break you? LOL!

I asked one of my Arnis teachers one day, after a private lesson, what there was to learn after black. I should mention that I do have my first degree black in Arnis. His answer: Not much. Just making what you already know, better, and expanding upon it. And ya know what? He's 100% correct! I've worked out with other FMA guys, and we've taken 1 or 2 of the basic stick disarms, and just drilled the hell out of them, exploring, and finding new things. My teacher gave me the tools to do that. Now its up to me to take those tools and apply them. He's not going to spoon feed me, nor do I want him too.

 

[PhotonGuy]

If your instructor trains based on your belt, get another instructor.

At my dojo usually when you go up a belt you learn a new kata. There are cases of white belts knowing a whole bunch of more advanced kata but in some ways that ruins your progression. The idea is that when you go up a belt you learn the new kata and that is part of the glory of progression and all. A white belt that knows katas up to the brown belt level has defeated that purpose. One of our instructors explained that. And sometimes white belts do get taught advanced techniques, but the idea is to focus on the techniques that are primarily taught at your belt level and then when you get to your next belt level to focus on the techniques you learn then, ect.

Maybe that's why you're belt focused instead of skill focused?

I am skill focused. But I want results of my skill. And results comes in the form of belts.

 

[ballen0351]

At my dojo usually when you go up a belt you learn a new kata. There are cases of white belts knowing a whole bunch of more advanced kata but in some ways that ruins your progression. The idea is that when you go up a belt you learn the new kata and that is part of the glory of progression and all. A white belt that knows katas up to the brown belt level has defeated that purpose. One of our instructors explained that. And sometimes white belts do get taught advanced techniques, but the idea is to focus on the techniques that are primarily taught at your belt level and then when you get to your next belt level to focus on the techniques you learn then, ect.

So how did anyone ever learn anything before we had color belts?

I am skill focused. But I want results of my skill. And results comes in the form of belts.

Not even close if you think your results are based on colored cloth that's sad

 

[PhotonGuy]

As geezer said, why not just stop worrying about rank. I further agree, that the arts are not the boyscouts. And believe it or not, there are some people that just don't care about it. They're more interested in training, learning the art, and getting good at it. I've said it a million times, and I'll say it a million more...the belt is not an indicator of skill. Just because someone wears a BB, doesn't mean they're worthy of that. The same can be said for a green belt, a blue or purple. I have my 4th degree Black in Kenpo. However, I'm no longer active in the art, ie: training under a teacher, but I still work my techs. I mean, after a certain time, rank advancement is simply time in grade. Once you reach a certain rank, there are no more techs, or kata. And who really needs more anyways? By the time you reach the upper BB levels, you should have quite a wide array of material to work on. Is learning 1 more tech going to make or break you? LOL!

I asked one of my Arnis teachers one day, after a private lesson, what there was to learn after black. I should mention that I do have my first degree black in Arnis. His answer: Not much. Just making what you already know, better, and expanding upon it. And ya know what? He's 100% correct! I've worked out with other FMA guys, and we've taken 1 or 2 of the basic stick disarms, and just drilled the hell out of them, exploring, and finding new things. My teacher gave me the tools to do that. Now its up to me to take those tools and apply them. He's not going to spoon feed me, nor do I want him too.

The arts are not the boyscouts but the two systems have some stuff in common. They both use ranks (some of the arts do) and I don't see why the philosophy of one can't be applied to the other or why eagle scout and black belt wouldn't be a good analogy. As for people that don't care about rank that's their choice but much of what I have to say would not apply to them. And I've said it a million times and I'll say it a million more. As for belt being an indicator of skill and the result of being good at the art it depends who you get it from. There are some senseis that just hand out rank, or for that matter sell it, but I would never train under such a sensei. As for getting a high belt under a sensei that actually makes you earn it, you would not have such a belt if you haven't reached a high level of skill and knowledge in the art, not if you got it under such a sensei. So for me its not about rank, its about rank AND who I get it from.

And yes you're right, after a certain rank there are no more tech's, kata, ect. That being said, I think it would make sense for a student to at least want to make first degree black belt. Even if you don't care much about rank it would make sense to want to get a first degree black belt and then not care much about rank progression. With a first degree black belt you've at least completed your initiation into the martial arts, and as this other poster said, it could even be equivalent to a bachelor's degree in the martial arts.

 

[Dirty Dog]

At my dojo usually when you go up a belt you learn a new kata.

Kata are a useful training tool. They are not the be all and end all of the art. And how do you suppose anybody ever learned anything before Kano took a ranking system used in the game of GO and applied it to Judo?

There are cases of white belts knowing a whole bunch of more advanced kata but in some ways that ruins your progression.

Incorrect. There are cases of people who are trying to learn skills they're not ready for, and in some ways that hinders your progression. Their belt is irrelevant to this.

The idea is that when you go up a belt you learn the new kata and that is part of the glory of progression and all. A white belt that knows katas up to the brown belt level has defeated that purpose. One of our instructors explained that. And sometimes white belts do get taught advanced techniques, but the idea is to focus on the techniques that are primarily taught at your belt level and then when you get to your next belt level to focus on the techniques you learn then, ect.

That makes sense if you're using the belt system (and basing training on belt color, rather than skill) as a fund raiser.
Personally, I teach people what they're ready to learn.

I am skill focused. But I want results of my skill. And results comes in the form of belts.

Utter nonsense. Strap on a black belt with 42 gold stripes and see if that makes you any better. Now strap on a white belt and see if you're any worse. Now try no belt at all.
The results of my skills come in two primary forms.
1 - When I am forced to use them, I'm effective, and I'm not the one going "OUCH".
2 - I can see the skills of the students I work with improve.

For someone who claims to be skill focused, I don't seem to recall you making many posts on the subject of skills. Lots and lots about belt color, but not much about skills.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I am skill focused. But I want results of my skill. And results comes in the form of belts.

Skill is what can be demonstrated. It could be in the form of successfully defending yourself, successfully competing in a competition or successfully demonstrating a principle of training to a student. A belt is really an unnecessary visual tool. A belt can be abused whereas skill speaks for itself. Hence results come from skill and not from a belt.

I've worn my belt perhaps two times since 2005 (give or take). My skill didn't disappear. And somehow I still have the ability to teach.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Utter nonsense. Strap on a black belt with 42 gold stripes and see if that makes you any better. Now strap on a white belt and see if you're any worse.

::Facepalm!:: You just don't get it. I will try to spell it out, AGAIN! Obviously putting on a certain colored belt won't make you any better or worse, BUT if you're wearing a high ranking belt at a place where you rightfully earned it NOT where you had it handed or sold to you, than you would have to have skill. You wouldn't be wearing a high belt if you didn't develop skill first, at least not if you're wearing it at the kind of dojo I just described. So by getting a high rank belt at the kind of place I described, that means that you know that you've met your sensei's standards for the rank. THAT is what I am trying to get at. What part don't you understand? This is what Im talking about when I say stuff doesn't register.

 

[donald1]

It sounds like you're referring to people who lack concern or motivation while that may be true for some in some aspects a belt is proof of accomplishments, recognition for becoming a certain level of skill and or knowledge inside a martial arts style and there are some styles that don't use belts thus taking away the significance

I like belts myself but the belt, hopefully isn't the main reason for joining a martial arts some people join for self defense or other reasons as well
Best of luck

 

[Buka]

For the last five or six years this is the belt I wear when I teach.

In Japanese it means "Rank has no meaning" -kaikyuu mu imi (literally, "rank no meaning")
The other end says "Bushido is the only path" - bushido hitosuji (literally, "bushido straight line/dedicated/only/just")

Some may scoff, but I really don't give a damn. I stand for what I believe. I have a closet full of belts. A couple have all the bells and whistles - I only wear them for formal ceremonies, like a Black Belt promotion. Or if I want to make the youngsters nervous)

The belt I care about most is the white belt in the pic. Had that puppy for a dozen years now.

 

[Blindside]

The belt I care about most is the white belt in the pic. Had that puppy for a dozen years now.

Awesome, I inherited a "natural white" white belt from when my dad was in karate 50 something years ago, I wore it through regular study in four systems and I still get to bust it out occaisionally when I go visiting other schools and systems. It sits in the "karate bag" hoping to be used again.

 

[Blindside]

::Facepalm!:: You just don't get it. I will try to spell it out, AGAIN! Obviously putting on a certain colored belt won't make you any better or worse, BUT if you're wearing a high ranking belt at a place where you rightfully earned it NOT where you had it handed or sold to you, than you would have to have skill. You wouldn't be wearing a high belt if you didn't develop skill first, at least not if you're wearing it at the kind of dojo I just described. So by getting a high rank belt at the kind of place I described, that means that you know that you've met your sensei's standards for the rank. THAT is what I am trying to get at. What part don't you understand? This is what Im talking about when I say stuff doesn't register.

In the eight years (or whatever it was) of you being stranded at brown belt because you didn't ask about testing, did you not learn anything? Did your skill not develop? Did you really spend that time doing absolutely rote renditions of what you had done before with no improvement?

 

[drop bear]

::Facepalm!:: You just don't get it. I will try to spell it out, AGAIN! Obviously putting on a certain colored belt won't make you any better or worse, BUT if you're wearing a high ranking belt at a place where you rightfully earned it NOT where you had it handed or sold to you, than you would have to have skill. You wouldn't be wearing a high belt if you didn't develop skill first, at least not if you're wearing it at the kind of dojo I just described. So by getting a high rank belt at the kind of place I described, that means that you know that you've met your sensei's standards for the rank. THAT is what I am trying to get at. What part don't you understand? This is what Im talking about when I say stuff doesn't register.

You like to work towards a defined goal. It motivates you to work harder. And the reward makes that hard work worth it.

I don't have an issue with that.

 

[Dirty Dog]

::Facepalm!:: You just don't get it. I will try to spell it out, AGAIN! Obviously putting on a certain colored belt won't make you any better or worse, BUT if you're wearing a high ranking belt at a place where you rightfully earned it NOT where you had it handed or sold to you, than you would have to have skill. You wouldn't be wearing a high belt if you didn't develop skill first, at least not if you're wearing it at the kind of dojo I just described. So by getting a high rank belt at the kind of place I described, that means that you know that you've met your sensei's standards for the rank. THAT is what I am trying to get at. What part don't you understand? This is what Im talking about when I say stuff doesn't register.

And if you have the skills, that will be obvious regardless of the belt.
You are (clearly) focused on the outward trappings of rank, while others (mostly those with more experience) don't care about the trappings.

 

[Buka]

Awesome, I inherited a "natural white" white belt from when my dad was in karate 50 something years ago, I wore it through regular study in four systems and I still get to bust it out occaisionally when I go visiting other schools and systems. It sits in the "karate bag" hoping to be used again.

Whoa, that's kind of epic. Gave me chicken skin.

 

[Balrog]

One problem about the

- ranking system is when someone gets his black belt, he may think that his job is done and quit from MA training for the rest of his life.

I tell my students that making 1st Degree Black Belt is like graduating from high school. You've learned the basics, now it's time to go to college and start learning the art.

 

[drop bear]

And if you have the skills, that will be obvious regardless of the belt.
You are (clearly) focused on the outward trappings of rank, while others (mostly those with more experience) don't care about the trappings.

Then how do you set goals?

I can see belt ranking as one method. Comps may be another. Some people are happy not to set goal. But others need them to focus their training and believe it makes their training more effective.

So this thing about not having rank.or worrying about it is fine. I don't. But as far as the idea being morally superior. I don't really agree with.

It is like saying a mature student who goes back to school to earn his doctorate or something is somehow shallow.

 

[blindsage]

And why wouldn't somebody who works hard to develop high skill pursue high rank? Provided that they train in a system that uses rank, I would think they want to see the results of their skill and hard work which comes in the form of rank, at least if they're training under a sensei that I would train under (somebody who makes their students earn their ranks instead of handing them out or selling them). For such a person to not pursue rank, it would be like a boyscout who works hard to live up to the scout oath and the scout law and to be a good scout but who doesn't pursue rank in boyscouts. True, you can be a good scout and not have a high rank such as Eagle, but it makes sense that somebody who works hard to be a good scout would want to be an Eagle Scout, that would be the proper result of somebody being a good scout.

If someone trains in a system that uses rank, and they work hard then rank comes. If they are focused on rank they're missing the point. If they need rank to be motivated, something else is missing. Rank mattered to me when I was young. When I became older and more skilled rank lost any real meaning but I didn't lose any motivation. Also, your original post shows blatant disrespect for those who don't buy into your motivations, and implies, or rather directly states that those who aren't interested in rank are basically lesser than those who are, and that's where much of your blowback is coming from.

 

[blindsage]

At my dojo usually when you go up a belt you learn a new kata. There are cases of white belts knowing a whole bunch of more advanced kata but in some ways that ruins your progression. The idea is that when you go up a belt you learn the new kata and that is part of the glory of progression and all. A white belt that knows katas up to the brown belt level has defeated that purpose. One of our instructors explained that. And sometimes white belts do get taught advanced techniques, but the idea is to focus on the techniques that are primarily taught at your belt level and then when you get to your next belt level to focus on the techniques you learn then, ect.

This is an arbitrary fact of the school you train at. At my school there are beginners and there is everybody else. Those who are more advanced train on more advanced elements and help those who are less advanced. And there is a lot of high level skill that comes out of our school.

I am skill focused. But I want results of my skill. And results comes in the form of belts.

Skill is it's own reward. A belt is a belt.

 

[blindsage]

Then how do you set goals?

I can see belt ranking as one method. Comps may be another. Some people are happy not to set goal. But others need them to focus their training and believe it makes their training more effective.

So this thing about not having rank.or worrying about it is fine. I don't. But as far as the idea being morally superior. I don't really agree with.

It is like saying a mature student who goes back to school to earn his doctorate or something is somehow shallow.

I think the problem here is the opposite though. The OP set up the conversation by basically stating that those who pursue rank are superior. Dirty Dog is responding in that context.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Then how do you set goals?

I can see belt ranking as one method. Comps may be another. Some people are happy not to set goal. But others need them to focus their training and believe it makes their training more effective.

So this thing about not having rank.or worrying about it is fine. I don't. But as far as the idea being morally superior. I don't really agree with.

It is like saying a mature student who goes back to school to earn his doctorate or something is somehow shallow.

I set lots of goals. Belt color, or the number if Stars and Stripes on that belt, doesn't affect my goals.
The OP basically stated that unless you are pursuing a BELT, you are just "a bump on a log". That's utter nonsense.
I pursue skill and knowledge. I've done so for as long as I can remember (although as a child I did think rank mattered). And I will do so for as long as I am able.
If someone wants to give me another fancy belt for doing that, then fine. If not, that's also fine. What's wrapped around my waist doesn't have any impact on my skills, nor my goals.
Like most people, I have lots of pieces of paper. Quite a few are framed. Do you know which two mean the most to me?
A certificate signed and sealed by the head of the WTF, and another by our Kwanjang. Neither is a rank. They are both thank you cards for dedication and service to the Art.


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