This is a loaded question but why do you belong to the organization that you belong too and what is the ultimate bottom line of why you stay with them.
TKD Organization
- Thread starter terryl965
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For me it was the ITF probaly still is, I also belong to USAT formally the USTU mainly for my son if he ever wants a shot at the Olympics they are the only game in town. Also the AAU right now they have the best compitition for all of my player just not the elites.
Well there is mine and what are yours?
Well there is mine and what are yours?
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Thank you for sharing what makes the ATA right for you? I mean I have never been with them and have really no ideal what type of TKD it teaches?
My instructor is recognized by the WTF and has KKW certification for the first four of his 5 dan rankings (the KKW appears to drag its feet on certification above 4th, although the master my instructor was awarded his 5th by is an eighth dan in very good esteem in the KKW/Korean TKD scene... go figure). We have however a very, um, eclectic curriculum that owes much more to our Song Moo Kwan lineage than any org. To be honest, that lineage connection is far more important to us than anything currently going on in the Korean TKD scene...
I'm probably a bit unique in this because I've actually saught out my instructor & the organization. The US Chung Do Kwan Association & GM Edward Sell (it's head). I looked at a few organizations to run my school under. Some that I spoke to were unorganized, some offered very little in the way of help.
GM Sell has kept his word to me & been very helpful to me. In addition to this, his requests of me are quite reasonable. I have access to KKW certification as well.
GM Sell has kept his word to me & been very helpful to me. In addition to this, his requests of me are quite reasonable. I have access to KKW certification as well.
Laurentkd
Master Black Belt
This basically sums it up for me as well, except our lineage is Ji Do Kwan. But we also feel it is this lineage that is the most important connection we have. We also compete in AAU tournaments, so I guess that counts as an org. we are a part of.
tkd_jen
Purple Belt
We are WTF as well. My instructors are KKW certified 5th and 6th Dan. Our players fight at both AAU and USAT events based on their needs.
Affiliation is really only important (so far as the student is concerned, anyway) in terms of your competitive ambitions, I think. So, for example, my dojang is much more self-defense than competition oriented, and hence WTF sanctioning means very little to us. And even in terms of curriculum, you can follow say the KKW or ITF syllabus without being formally affiliated; Kacey's school, for example, follows a curriculum heavily influenced by the ITF's program, but as I recall is no longer officially an ITF member dojang. From what Matt has said, IIRC, Moo Sul Kwan teaches both the Palgwes and the Taegeuks, and so on.
As time goes on, and SD-oriented TKD becomes more and more available, I see a split developing between the competitive sparring and the CQ combat-oriented schools which will probably reflect itself in an increasing number of independent schools, possibly forming their own organiziation along the lines of the British Combat Association. The following quotation from their website gives a very nice idea of how they differ from the typical TKD organization:
Often an Instructor, who, within a traditional association, wishes to emphasise the practical or self defence aspects of his art, will often have a very hard time of things. Barriers will be put up by his seniors and a very restrictive environment is created to deter the individual from embarking on a learning curve about other systems and concepts. As no one system has the complete answer to effectiveness in a self defence role, an Instructor must be allowed to practise, research and develop his art or system. However, with strong style groups, any outside training or research is frowned upon.
Also outside instructors are never brought in to teach because of political reasons and yet most traditional systems have little or no formal self defence curriculum. Often the techniques taught are of a stylised and impractical nature, with little credibility or chance of working in a real life situation.
To date, instructors faced with such a dilemma have either accepted the situation or moved to a non-style organisation where they are usually left to their own devices. This may be alright in itself, but fails to provide a proper solution. Operating in such an isolated environment leads to stagnation and a lack of awareness of the ever-changing and developing world of Personal Combat.
It is important that instructors and their students who follow a more practical, combat oriented approach, belong to an organisation which shares the same philosophy and which works actively at gathering information, sharing it and also promoting the groups within it. Since its inception, The British Combat Association has been instrumental, more so than any other organisation before, in educating the martial arts fraternity on the true realities of combat and the complexities of self defence.
It's clear from this that the main focus of the BCA is education, training, and cross-fertilization of idea about concrete, practical applications of MAs. The concept of `sanctioning' or `licensing' or whatever is completely off the mark in this connection; no one is subordinating their individual school identity to an international meta-org's agenda or top-down uber-definition of what the really important aspect of the MA is, the way the ROK/WTF has done with Taekwondo. What you have instead is a pooling of resources, ideas, and personal experiences that can help MA students shape their own training of their chosen MA in the direction of realistic H2H sef defense.
I'd love to see something like the BCA get started in the US—in some ways, it already has, e.g. Brian van C.'s Instinctive Response Training network of connections and seminars with various other MA styles and schools. But what I'd really like to see is that kind of alternative become much more typical and familiar, as available to the student in the average community as the Olympic-sparring-style dojang is today. It's not gonna happen overnight, but I think there's a decent chance it could... there are some encouraging signs.
As time goes on, and SD-oriented TKD becomes more and more available, I see a split developing between the competitive sparring and the CQ combat-oriented schools which will probably reflect itself in an increasing number of independent schools, possibly forming their own organiziation along the lines of the British Combat Association. The following quotation from their website gives a very nice idea of how they differ from the typical TKD organization:
Often an Instructor, who, within a traditional association, wishes to emphasise the practical or self defence aspects of his art, will often have a very hard time of things. Barriers will be put up by his seniors and a very restrictive environment is created to deter the individual from embarking on a learning curve about other systems and concepts. As no one system has the complete answer to effectiveness in a self defence role, an Instructor must be allowed to practise, research and develop his art or system. However, with strong style groups, any outside training or research is frowned upon.
Also outside instructors are never brought in to teach because of political reasons and yet most traditional systems have little or no formal self defence curriculum. Often the techniques taught are of a stylised and impractical nature, with little credibility or chance of working in a real life situation.
To date, instructors faced with such a dilemma have either accepted the situation or moved to a non-style organisation where they are usually left to their own devices. This may be alright in itself, but fails to provide a proper solution. Operating in such an isolated environment leads to stagnation and a lack of awareness of the ever-changing and developing world of Personal Combat.
It is important that instructors and their students who follow a more practical, combat oriented approach, belong to an organisation which shares the same philosophy and which works actively at gathering information, sharing it and also promoting the groups within it. Since its inception, The British Combat Association has been instrumental, more so than any other organisation before, in educating the martial arts fraternity on the true realities of combat and the complexities of self defence.
It's clear from this that the main focus of the BCA is education, training, and cross-fertilization of idea about concrete, practical applications of MAs. The concept of `sanctioning' or `licensing' or whatever is completely off the mark in this connection; no one is subordinating their individual school identity to an international meta-org's agenda or top-down uber-definition of what the really important aspect of the MA is, the way the ROK/WTF has done with Taekwondo. What you have instead is a pooling of resources, ideas, and personal experiences that can help MA students shape their own training of their chosen MA in the direction of realistic H2H sef defense.
I'd love to see something like the BCA get started in the US—in some ways, it already has, e.g. Brian van C.'s Instinctive Response Training network of connections and seminars with various other MA styles and schools. But what I'd really like to see is that kind of alternative become much more typical and familiar, as available to the student in the average community as the Olympic-sparring-style dojang is today. It's not gonna happen overnight, but I think there's a decent chance it could... there are some encouraging signs.
Chizikunbo
Purple Belt
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My instructor happens to be the president of my org LOL
Student/Teacher loyalty is quite important if you ever want to truly learn the art. You cannot bounce around and do this.
--josh
Student/Teacher loyalty is quite important if you ever want to truly learn the art. You cannot bounce around and do this.
--josh
Dave Leverich
Black Belt
Mine is the ATA.
I started in the WTA (GM Sun Duk Song's organization), and ended up leaving to an ATA school purely due to the instructor, nothing to do with the orgnization. Once in the ATA, I found my new fellow students were just learning the new Songahm forms, having just switched from the forms I was doing before. (low block, punch, low block punch, low block punch.. sound familiar? hehe).
The ATA is set up on a few levels, of course you have the school level at which most students stay pretty comfortably at. At the school level they learn a standard curriculum (obviously with some varience as instructors add things), with set forms, testing requirements, equipment etc.
From the school owners' perspective though, things are much different in terms of most of the other organizations that I'm familiar with. The Headquarters is very accessible and available to the owners, you can call any number of Masters and get resolution if it the situation isn't clearly illustrated elsewhere. From what I've noticed, the 'network' is just much more prevalent than most other organizations. It has a clearly shown chain of command, with rank leading upwards etc. While there is some 'McTKD' aspects, with things being packaged etc, I think it's unavoidable with the amount of standardization the organization requires. I'll see if I can't illustrate those more clearly in a bit.
From a regional level you have regional officers, a 'buck stops here' person for each region (US has its, Canada/UK have the WTTF, SA has STF, all with the same set up, much like the U.S with states, gov body). The Regional VP is the 'go to' in the area, who helps coordinate, assists schools, basically the overseeing person of any given region. The RCT (Chief of Tournaments) of each region then coordinates those (huge job with the divisions, points etc).
In any given region you will have a number of schools that are all mostly autonomous, but they do work together at times with regards to regional events, sometimes marketing coordination, testings, etc.
On the national level you have the headquarters (I suppose international level as they also oversee the worldwide Songahm organizations). There, they oversee instruction, forms, one-steps, requirements etc. They have departments such as tournament, testing, instruction, protech (weapons training), etc. Each with a presiding Master/chain of command. At the top we have the Masters Council, a group of the 'heads of state' so to speak. These masters help shape the changes in the organization and determine it's direction.
So back to what it gives me personally? (I know, a lot to digest and I only briefly touched on the aspects).
I get a set curriculum for advancement, a clear path that I can take at whichever speed I deem is mine. I get a standard as far as how techniques are performed, variations of course, but a set of guidelines to measure. I get a network of people that are closely linked, each school owner _knows_ the other school owners in the region, if not the surrounding regions as well. We all work together for events, testings etc (I sit on usually 12-18 testing panels per year around the state). I get a sense of family?
I guess it's somewhat difficult to clearly illustrate all of the points or aspects, and I'm sure I've overlooked other organizations similarities as I haven't been in a different one for some 22 years. I do other styles as well for my own growth, but none of those in any org.
A quick summation of the history would be: ITF with GM Choi brings TKD to the US (one of the people, I know GM Rhee and other groups). The ATA is formed as the NGB of the ITF in the US. Groups splinter as 'too many chefs in the kitchen' (my own grasp of it of course).
As far as groups that started in the ATA, I know of the ITA, USTA, HTF, and quite a few others. When a group of people have different ideas and split off to form their own organization. I have many friends in the other organizations and I'm sure I'll make many more before I'm gone.
I've rambled quite a bit, but I'd be happy to more clearly illustrate points or aspects if people find parts lacking (heck, I know I do heh).
I started in the WTA (GM Sun Duk Song's organization), and ended up leaving to an ATA school purely due to the instructor, nothing to do with the orgnization. Once in the ATA, I found my new fellow students were just learning the new Songahm forms, having just switched from the forms I was doing before. (low block, punch, low block punch, low block punch.. sound familiar? hehe).
The ATA is set up on a few levels, of course you have the school level at which most students stay pretty comfortably at. At the school level they learn a standard curriculum (obviously with some varience as instructors add things), with set forms, testing requirements, equipment etc.
From the school owners' perspective though, things are much different in terms of most of the other organizations that I'm familiar with. The Headquarters is very accessible and available to the owners, you can call any number of Masters and get resolution if it the situation isn't clearly illustrated elsewhere. From what I've noticed, the 'network' is just much more prevalent than most other organizations. It has a clearly shown chain of command, with rank leading upwards etc. While there is some 'McTKD' aspects, with things being packaged etc, I think it's unavoidable with the amount of standardization the organization requires. I'll see if I can't illustrate those more clearly in a bit.
From a regional level you have regional officers, a 'buck stops here' person for each region (US has its, Canada/UK have the WTTF, SA has STF, all with the same set up, much like the U.S with states, gov body). The Regional VP is the 'go to' in the area, who helps coordinate, assists schools, basically the overseeing person of any given region. The RCT (Chief of Tournaments) of each region then coordinates those (huge job with the divisions, points etc).
In any given region you will have a number of schools that are all mostly autonomous, but they do work together at times with regards to regional events, sometimes marketing coordination, testings, etc.
On the national level you have the headquarters (I suppose international level as they also oversee the worldwide Songahm organizations). There, they oversee instruction, forms, one-steps, requirements etc. They have departments such as tournament, testing, instruction, protech (weapons training), etc. Each with a presiding Master/chain of command. At the top we have the Masters Council, a group of the 'heads of state' so to speak. These masters help shape the changes in the organization and determine it's direction.
So back to what it gives me personally? (I know, a lot to digest and I only briefly touched on the aspects).
I get a set curriculum for advancement, a clear path that I can take at whichever speed I deem is mine. I get a standard as far as how techniques are performed, variations of course, but a set of guidelines to measure. I get a network of people that are closely linked, each school owner _knows_ the other school owners in the region, if not the surrounding regions as well. We all work together for events, testings etc (I sit on usually 12-18 testing panels per year around the state). I get a sense of family?
I guess it's somewhat difficult to clearly illustrate all of the points or aspects, and I'm sure I've overlooked other organizations similarities as I haven't been in a different one for some 22 years. I do other styles as well for my own growth, but none of those in any org.
A quick summation of the history would be: ITF with GM Choi brings TKD to the US (one of the people, I know GM Rhee and other groups). The ATA is formed as the NGB of the ITF in the US. Groups splinter as 'too many chefs in the kitchen' (my own grasp of it of course).
As far as groups that started in the ATA, I know of the ITA, USTA, HTF, and quite a few others. When a group of people have different ideas and split off to form their own organization. I have many friends in the other organizations and I'm sure I'll make many more before I'm gone.
I've rambled quite a bit, but I'd be happy to more clearly illustrate points or aspects if people find parts lacking (heck, I know I do heh).
fireman00
Brown Belt
my instructors all have 3rd degree in WTF and 2nd degree in ITF. We get a red belt on year XX from Kukkiwon by doing WTF forms/ sparring then the next year we'll test for our gold stripe by doing ITF forms.
Well, at first it was the cheapest one around that I could afford! I hate to admit that- I really and truly do... However, not too far after starting, it seemed like the best (for me anyways) in the area in what I was after... Not too rough/ "fancy", but also helped me accomplish several of my goals as a martial artist- self defense, physical fitness, etc. Also, it ran along the same lines of what I believe in, both spiritually and my thinking.
