The ultimate organization for TKD

[Kong Soo Do]

We've been having a lot of discussions lately where people have been voicing their concerns, dissatisfaction, disgust etc over certain TKD organizations. For the sake of discussion, 'what if' all TKD organizations folded up tent tomorrow and they were all gone. 'What if' an 'ultimate' TKD organization was then being designed by people IN TKD and FOR people in TKD? Here is the question; what would you propose for the rules of this organization?

• What rules are important to you, and why?
• What rules should be 'set in stone', and why?
• What rules, if any, should be flexible guidelines that 'could' be changed from time-to-time?
• What types of fee should be charged?
• Should there be a fee for each rank promotion?
• Any TIG strictly enforced?
• Minimum level for a BB?

Stuff like this....

No wrong answers, but thought it would be interesting to see what people think.

 

[MAist25]

Well, the reason there are so many organizations today are because there are always disagreements for all of the questions you posted. Then there is always the disagreements on who gets to be in charge of the organization. Then there are the disagreements on how the money gets split up, etc. Its just a huge mess and to be honest, there are no perfect organizations for anybody except for the person in charge of that organization, because he is the only one getting everything he wants. I do think organizations are good things to be a part of though. They are great for getting to meet people from other schools who train in a very similar way to you. They are great for things like seminars in order to broaden your skills and train under masters who are usually very high ranking and very skilled. They are also great for rank promotion so that everybody in the organization has a pretty standardized curriculum and everybody can pretty much tell what level each individual is at. Orgs also are there to back you up if somebody questions you or your legitimacy. If you have a large organization like the Kukkiwon to back you up and recognize you as a Dan holder then you are in pretty good shape and dont have to worry about things like that.

For me, the ideal organization would be one that is very active around the area I live in but also has other locations around the country, etc. It would be led by well-respected masters who love teaching more than they love money. It would be an organization that offers many seminars and training sessions. And it would be an organization that doesnt rip me off and charge ridiculous fees. Sounds very simple, yet organizations like this seem to be hard to find.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Old Story re tooled for TKD. TKD Guy is rescued after being alone on a desert island for 10 years. Rescuers first see a building and ask what's that? He says it's my TKD gym. Then they see a second building and syas what's that? He says that's another TKD gym. Had a falling out with the instructor . org.

 

[Earl Weiss]

• What rules are important to you, and why?
• What rules should be 'set in stone', and why?
• What rules, if any, should be flexible guidelines that 'could' be changed from time-to-time?
• What types of fee should be charged?
• Should there be a fee for each rank promotion?
• Any TIG strictly enforced?
• Minimum level for a BB?

Stuff like this....No wrong answers, but thought it would be interesting to see what people think.

The org should:1. Set technical standards for techniqe2. Set Standards for rank and competition. (Flexible based on age, size and gender.)3. Provide a clearing house for rank certification / verification. 4. Organize seminars and competitions. 5. Provide a knowledge resource for #1 & 4 above. 6. Provide marketing assistance by way of idea sharing and cost sharing. 7. Set limits on what can be charged for rank with flexibility based on geographic cost variations.

 

[Cyriacus]

Personally, i think the current splits are good. It keeps a clear distinction.
The ITF is more of a Close Distance Fighting Style. (Or at least, Two of the Three ITF's are. The fact that there are three of the same Organisation is a bit silly.)
The WTF is more of a Medium/Long Range Fighting Style.
The KKW is somewere in between.
The GTF isnt too different to the ITF, but has many technical differences.

Im sure there are unmentioned organisations here, but i can hardly list every one.
But the important thing is, that i think its good that you can choose which interpritation you wish to learn.

And ultimately, in answer to all of those questions, every Organisation would answer it the same way. But it wouldnt change the fact that each Organisation will have different ideas on what should be emphasised and what shouldnt be.

I, for example, prefer the ITF Form just the way it is. Others will prefer the KKW Form, just the way it is. If every Organisation were to smush itself together, it may perhaps improve to some degree, but it would also change drastically from the form you like, into something else that probably wouldnt make much sense.
And thered be arguements over which brand of Patterns everyone should be learning. Or how Instep (Round) Kicks are supposed to be done. Or what your Primary Fighting Stance should be.

Tis better the way it is.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I believe the single most important thing would be that irrespective of what rules and regulations are put in place that the standards are MONITORED. There is no good in setting up standards if they are not going to be enforced. My club is not part of an org but is so large that it is probably an org of its own. We have standards, many I agree with and some I dont (we are far from perfect), BUT our standards are monitored and enforced which creates a level playing field for everyone and gets rid of a lot of the usual whinging associated with inconsistencies. All the other items are just a matter of opinion, which will obviously change from person to person. In my opinion it would be minimum 5 years to black belt, no kid black belts, strict grading requirements, WTF style sparring with a heavier emphasis on punching, reasonable prices for gradings which are capped and instructors/clubs cannot charge more than the capped amount, teach both the palgwe and taegek forms etc. But first and foremost these regulations would be enforced so all clubs have identical standards.

 

[thelegendxp]

I didn't know KKW taekwondo was largely different from WTF taekwondo.... they weren't really distinguished in the gyms in S.Korea as far as I know...

 

[Cyriacus]

I didn't know KKW taekwondo was largely different from WTF taekwondo.... they weren't really distinguished in the gyms in S.Korea as far as I know...

Thats because in South Korea, its probably all KKW TKD. They just Compete in the WTF system.

Just about everywere else, KKW Formal TKD and WTF Sport TKD are often labelled as the same thing, and generalised as WTF TKD, especially in America.
The best kind of Dojang for KKW TKD, is a School which teaches "Kukkiwon Standard Tae Kwon Do", and competes under the "World Tae Kwon Do Federation".

 

[Jaeimseu]

Thats because in South Korea, its probably all KKW TKD. They just Compete in the WTF system.Just about everywere else, KKW Formal TKD and WTF Sport TKD are often labelled as the same thing, and generalised as WTF TKD, especially in America.The best kind of Dojang for KKW TKD, is a School which teaches "Kukkiwon Standard Tae Kwon Do", and competes under the "World Tae Kwon Do Federation".

Most of the tkd schools here (korea) are kukki tkd, but there is a small itf presence. I even saw an ata bus picking up kids the other day.

 

[Cyriacus]

Most of the tkd schools here (korea) are kukki tkd, but there is a small itf presence. I even saw an ata bus picking up kids the other day.

Yeah; The ITF is more in North Korea, from what ive seen.

Out of interest though, since ive seen the ATA abbreviation used for Three different Organisations, which are you referring to?

 

[Jaeimseu]

Yeah; The ITF is more in North Korea, from what ive seen.Out of interest though, since ive seen the ATA abbreviation used for Three different Organisations, which are you referring to?

I can't say with 100% certainty, but it looked like the American Taekwondo Association logo (if I'm remembering it correctly). I remember reading somewhere about being here, but I've lived here 5 years and that's the first time I've seen anything ata.

 

[thelegendxp]

I see. So I've actually been attending a KKW gym all along while I thought it was officially called WTF. Now I understand why my certificates say KKW as apposed to WTF. Thanks for the enlightenment

Yeah, it's hard to see ITF around S.Korea. The federation was banned by the government long time ago because of its ties with North Korea, as far as I know, but I have seen a school or two here and there.

American Taekwondo Association? haha that's surprising.... beats me!

 

[MadMartigan]

I know this thread is very old, but got my curiosity going. For reference:

people have been voicing their concerns, dissatisfaction, disgust etc over certain TKD organizations. For the sake of discussion, 'what if' all TKD organizations folded up tent tomorrow and they were all gone. 'What if' an 'ultimate' TKD organization was then being designed by people IN TKD and FOR people in TKD? Here is the question; what would you propose for the rules of this organization?

It was correctly pointed out that KKW & ITF are so vastly different, that trying to blend them together would make both unrecognizable.

But the important thing is, that i think its good that you can choose which interpritation you wish to learn.

With that said, if we focused the original question into a single 'style' of TKD there should be enough common ground.
If you designed your ideal TKD organization, what would it look like? (My list from the perspective of an independent, but older ITF style is):

What rules are important to you, and why?

What rules should be 'set in stone', and

- Rules around how stances are to be consistent with each other (ie: a forward stance, a horse stance, and an L stance all cover the same distance).
- The general rules for patterns beginning and ending in the same place.
- How power is generated within fundamental movement drills and forms (if you're a sine wave style, the following those parameters; if using horizontal rotation, then doing that consistent with the org.)

What rules, if any, should be flexible guidelines that 'could' be changed from time-to-time?

- The use of kihaps.
- Precise blocking chamber positions (just need to be consistent with each other... 1 down block shouldn't chamber at the wrist if all your other down blocks chambered differently).
- Slow vs fast timing on different movements within a pattern. The focus should be on the proficiency being displayed rather than if the timing is the same as mine.
- Uniforms should be school choice.
- Sparring rules. (Students should learn multiple types of sparring). Tournament/exam rules could be consistent, though with themselves... not necessarily with each other.

What types of fee should be charged?

Minimal to run the administration... but more on that at the end.

Should there be a fee for each rank promotion?

For BB exams, of course. If you're asking an examiner (or panel) to take time/travel etc. Then they should be compensated for their time.

Any TIG strictly enforced?

I like the Time in Grade requirements frequently used for Dan levels. The amount of years equal to the dan grade applied for at minimum. (2 years for 2nd, 5 years at 4th before applying for 5th etc).

Minimum level for a BB

- I don't care so much about how long it takes a student to reach BB... but how good they are when they get there. If someone is exceptional, and gets there in 2-3 years, great. If it takes 12 to get there, great. The product is what matters.
- My ideal minimums would focus 1st on the aspects that have nothing to do with athleticism. Stance, posture, movement, balance, chambering positions... all things that nearly everyone can control their ability of through attention to detail and hard work. A black belt should be competent with both sides at EVERY fundamental movement taught. (And before someone snowflakes on me... of course exceptions are made for those with different abilities/structural limitations).
- 2nd on sparring/self defense competence (if your martial art doesn't teach you to fight... then maybe you're actually just learning to dance).

Sparring is a learned skill, but one more directly related to athleticism... making it impossible for everyone to reach the same level of proficiency. Perfection of fundamentals/patterns, however; is almost 100% within the control of the student. This is why I believe it to be the most important (and fair) standard to measure student progression with.

- Afterwards things like breaking and other demonstration techniques are useful but less important to me.

The org should:1. Set technical standards for techniqe2. Set Standards for rank and competition. (Flexible based on age, size and gender.)3. Provide a clearing house for rank certification / verification. 4. Organize seminars and competitions. 5. Provide a knowledge resource for #1 & 4 above. 6. Provide marketing assistance by way of idea sharing and cost sharing. 7. Set limits on what can be charged for rank with flexibility based on geographic cost variations.

GM Weiss, I realy liked your reply on this... but noted something about it. Nearly all your points of what an organization should be/do have nothing to do with individual students. They speak to supports for schools/instructors, making tournaments available, etc.

My last ideal for an organization follows that line further. Instead of an organization having 500 black belts and 10000 color belts (random hypothetical #s); it should only have those 500 BBs.
- This reduces administrative costs
- focus on the quality of teachers/BBs whose job it is to pass along to their students.
- Students can't affiate until they receive BB.
- Evaluate individual school's curriculums against the base standard of fundamentals etc.
- Instead of worrying about each gup rank doing the same thing at the same time, put the focus on 'did everyone get to around the same place by BB?'.
- Tournaments can be open to all students of affiliated instructors.
- Put on an annual regional org gathering/BB exam weekend/seminar for instructor development/grading to maintain standards and connections.

Instead of collecting students to raise funds to support org administration; just get rid of most of the administration.
This is a (very brief) description of an organization I could be a part of.