Ethics

[troubleenuf]

Question I will pose for discussion sake. Lived through this one so just want to get some different take on it.
If you belong to an organization, and someone in that organization is conducting unethical practices, and the head of your organization allows it to continue do you feel you are supporting that person or are you simply supporting the head of your organization?

 

[WC_lun]

When you belong to an organisation you are attaching your name and support to said organization. If someone else in that organisation does something unethical, and it is not addressed, those actions will also be attached to the organisation. In this case you are supporting an organisation that does not feel unethical conduct is important enough to be addressed. Since your name is attached to the organisation, you are attached to the non-action also.

I know it can be difficult for the individual to deny himself the support of an organization over someone else's mis-steps. However, I think a person should stand up for what they think is right. If a person doesn't stand up for what they think is correct, they have no right to expect people to stand up for them when they are wronged.

 

[Archtkd]

Question I will pose for discussion sake. Lived through this one so just want to get some different take on it.
If you belong to an organization, and someone in that organization is conducting unethical practices, and the head of your organization allows it to continue do you feel you are supporting that person or are you simply supporting the head of your organization?

You might need to explain more but in a simple world it sounds like you are chosing to remain silent as the head of your organization ignores the actions of a member -- which you describe as "conducting unethical practices." A bigger question I might ask is why have you chosen to remain silent?

 

[terryl965]

In life we always need to deal with those less than ethical, especially in the Martial Arts we have way to many crooks.:rofl:

 

[puunui]

If you belong to an organization, and someone in that organization is conducting unethical practices, and the head of your organization allows it to continue do you feel you are supporting that person or are you simply supporting the head of your organization?

Is this a public organization like USAT or a private one like your instructor's school association?

 

[miguksaram]

The first step I would take is to respectfully ask the head of the organization, as to why they are not doing something about the unethical practices of the individual. Perhaps there is more there than you know. Based on what the head of the organization says, then base you decision on whether or not you want to maintain your loyalties to that organization. Or, if the person is a termed officer, then rally others to vote him out on the next election.

 

[troubleenuf]

All right. I wasn't going to turn this into a "my experience" type deal. I was just going to start a conversation on ethics. But it seems I need to go into more detail. So here it is (this was the "final" thing that caused me to leave my old organization by the way).
One of the instructors was arrested for having 62 video tapes of him having sex with underage girls from his gym. Because the girls were 15/16 it was considered as consenting age in this state (yeh... believe it or not). So even though this guy was in his mid 40s he got of with basically a slap on the wrist and told to get out of town (they even left him with his counseling license!) So basically this guy moved to another city and wanted to open another gym. When my instructor told me he was going to allow him too I took that as the last straw on the camels back and left that organization (yes there were other problems up to this point but this was one thing I couldn't put up with). However none of the other instructors in the organization did. Even when I confronted them. I felt, and I told them this, that if that person belonged to the organization and I was part of the organization I was supporting him. Their position was that they were supporting the "head guy" and not this one instructor.
So I was just putting out some feelers out there to see how others felt about this type of situation.

 

[StudentCarl]

Thanks for giving a little more detail, so my comments aren't vague.

Anytime someone vulnerable is the victim, the need to act is greater because the victims can't effectively protect themselves. Regardless of consent law, the school owner was in an unequal authority relationship and thus had unequal influence in the 'relationship'. That's why this sort of thing is against the code of ethics of the American Psychological Association (for one), and gets school staff fired.

Second, silence with awareness is consent. If you are aware of a crime and do nothing to stop it you can be considered an accomplice. The question of whether you have a burden to report depends on your position and the law. For example, it's a felony if I, as a school teacher, observe signs of abuse on a child and fail to report that to Child Protective Services. (By the way, you might give them a call--they do preserve anonymity.)

Third, your integrity and conscience will tell you the truth. There were people who supported Adolph Hitler and the Nazis with no knowledge of the Holocaust he led. When the truth came out after the war, do you think those who supported him were able to convince themselves that their support of the Nazis was not tainted? That their support didn't somehow enable the killing? Could you make yourself believe that?

Fourth (on a parallel), the Nurenburg trials of Germans after WWII reminded people that "just following orders" was not a valid defense of one's actions. Hiding behind your leaders does not remove your responsibility to do what is right.

 

[miguksaram]

While the age of consent may have been 16, the fact that he filmed it should have been looked at as possession of child pornography. I'm assuming that the decision made to allow the guy to open up the school under the organization was made by one person and not a committee. If this is true then there is no distinction between the organization or the "head guy" as they are in fact one in the same. So if they are supporting the "head guy" they are in fact supporting a child molester to open a school under the organization.

You made the right decision in leaving this organization...May I inquire as to which org it is?

 

[puunui]

I have never left any of my instructors and remain on good terms with all of them. For me, the martial arts are like a family. Your fellow students under your instructor are your brothers and sisters, the students of your classmates are your nieces and nephews, and so forth.

Say in your real family you have a brother with a drug problem or has otherwise gotten in trouble with the law.Your parents, who unconditionally love your brother, try to help him each time he gets in trouble. Do you disown your parents and your brother if they help your brother?

 

[miguksaram]

Say in your real family you have a brother with a drug problem or has otherwise gotten in trouble with the law.Your parents, who unconditionally love your brother, try to help him each time he gets in trouble. Do you disown your parents and your brother if they help your brother?

This is why in my first response I said that he should respectfully ask why the head of the organization is allowing the person to affiliate with them. That way you could see what the full motivation was behind it. Perhaps he is trying to help this person overcome sickness. So I see the point you are making here but, based on the information given, the organizational leader does not seem to be trying to help the guy with his pedophilia problem. Instead he is turning a blind eye and even enabling him by allowing him the affiliation.

 

[puunui]

So I see the point you are making here but, based on the information given, the organizational leader does not seem to be trying to help the guy with his pedophilia problem. Instead he is turning a blind eye and even enabling him by allowing him the affiliation.

Assuming that is true, is that a sufficient reason in your mind to sever ties with your instructor? If your parents turn a blind eye and enables your brother with his pedophilia problem, do you cut ties with your parents and brother?

 

[miguksaram]

Assuming that is true, is that a sufficient reason in your mind to sever ties with your instructor? If your parents turn a blind eye and enables your brother with his pedophilia problem, do you cut ties with your parents and brother?

If it was a pedophilia problem? I would first try to get him help. If he refused and my family did nothing or just enabled the behavior, then yes, I would cut ties with my family. That doesn't mean I don't love them, it does mean that I do not condone nor will I be part of something of that nature.

In the scenario with the instructor, yes, I would definitely sever ties. That doesn't mean I would not acknowledge him as my instructor and I would do my best to part in a respectful way explaining why I am leaving. Hopefully it would be an amicable parting.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Say in your real family you have a brother with a drug problem or has otherwise gotten in trouble with the law.Your parents, who unconditionally love your brother, try to help him each time he gets in trouble. Do you disown your parents and your brother if they help your brother?

Yeah but this is not a family. This is a business. An organization from which you can walk away.

If the head of the org knowingly allows one of his members to set himself up to continue to do things that are morally wrong, then that means you have to choose whether you support that or not. Paedophiles are statistically proven to have a relapse rate of over 90%. Allowing a paedophile to set up a school which put him in contact with lots of kids, under your name, while knowing that he is almost guaranteed to continue... yes, that is the kind of person I'd walk away from.

The alternative is that you put your fingers in your ear and sing lalala I can't hear you, while looking away.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Assuming that is true, is that a sufficient reason in your mind to sever ties with your instructor? If your parents turn a blind eye and enables your brother with his pedophilia problem, do you cut ties with your parents and brother?

Yes.
And if he ever came near my house I'd crucify him. Alternatively, I'd crucify him preemptively if I had the idea that he was going to do it again. The only honorable option for a paedophile imo is voluntary castration or suicide.

There are times in life when you cannot stand in the middle and you have to choose a side. Either you support the paedophilia, or you oppose it. Choosing to ignore it is the same as passively supporting it (which is what you seem to advocate). Bad things happen if good people stand aside. Many things can be argued for both sides. Allowing paedophiles to continue is not one of them.

 

[miguksaram]

There are times in life when you cannot stand in the middle and you have to choose a side. Either you support the paedophilia, or you oppose it. Choosing to ignore it is the same as passively supporting it (which is what you seem to advocate). Bad things happen if good people stand aside. Many things can be argued for both sides. Allowing paedophiles to continue is not one of them.

While I agree with what you say here, I would not take Glenn's questioning of what I would do even if it was family as his advocation of passively supporting pedophilia. There is usually more there than what you read on the surface.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Well, on the surface it seems as if he says it is wrong to break with people enabling paedophilia or actual paedophiles, if they are blood relatives.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Interestingly, I just read 2 current news stories. One about a guy who got caught because his 12 year old daughter just gave birth to his offspring. the other about Philip Greaves, the guy who wrote and published a book titled The Pedophile's Guide to Love & Pleasure

With the first guy, he had already served a sentence for raping his -other- daughter. With the second guy his book was published by amazon despite their knowledge what was in it. It is just disgusting that these people were allowed to be in a position where they could make (more) victims.

That is why I would walk away from enablers, no matter who they are. And I would do whatever I could to stop them. In this case, I would not only walk away from the headmaster, but I would also notify the various stakeholders in the new location what was coming their way. Because I would not know how to explain to my 5 year old daughter why I stood by and did nothing.

The only help a paedophile deserves is a length of rope and a leg up.

 

[troubleenuf]

Actually I did just that. I made a call and simply told the owner of the health club to do a web search for this guy. He was out. I have no idea were he went now though as I assume he moved someplace else and is now teaching again.



That is why I would walk away from enablers, no matter who they are. And I would do whatever I could to stop them. In this case, I would not only walk away from the headmaster, but I would also notify the various stakeholders in the new location what was coming their way. Because I would not know how to explain to my 5 year old daughter why I stood by and did nothing.

The only help a paedophile deserves is a length of rope and a leg up.[/QUOTE]

 

[puunui]

While I agree with what you say here, I would not take Glenn's questioning of what I would do even if it was family as his advocation of passively supporting pedophilia. There is usually more there than what you read on the surface.

You are right, it isn't a case of supporting pedophilia (which isn't the case in the example given since the girls in question were 15-16, pedophilia is defined as a love of prepubescent children). It was more an issue of the relationship between teacher and student, and ultimately of unconditional love.

Both the US and Korea are Christian countries, and without a doubt our values and our culture are greatly influenced by Christianity, even if we are not practicing Christians. Korea is probably the most Christian nation in Asia, and there are at least a dozen Korean christian churches within a couple miles of my home. To me, Jesus was about unconditional love and non-judgmentality -- turn the other cheek, forgive seven times seventy, he who is without sin casting the first stone, and so forth.

I think this situation is also very common in a lot of schools, perhaps not so much with the head instructor, but rather at the assistant instructor level. So many times when I visit dojang I see that socially awkward assistant instructor whose whole life is that dojang, his only contact with the opposite sex being teenaged students.

And it is not limited to males, but females too. In fact, here, the daughter of a prominent instructor in her late twenties, one of the chief assistants at her father's school, was dating a 13 year male student. It was quite a school scandal. I wouldn't characterize him as an "enabler", but I also don't think he disowned her either. He clearly loved his daughter.