Tkd & hkd

[Kong Soo Do]

I was curious as to how many folks here with TKD training have also taken/take HKD training? Do you have/desire Dan rank in both? Do you find it quite different from one another or a very good, complimentary fit?

 

[Instructor]

I hold 1st Dan belts in ITF TKD and HKD. My initial training was a hybrid school but I eventually sought out a school that only taught HKD. In my opinion the styles are just plain different. I think TKD people can learn HKD readily though. The hardest part is getting out of that points sparring mindset and getting into that 'what's the quickest way to end this' mindset.

These days TKD is primarily something I teach children when I get young students. For myself I feel closer to Hapkido it's as if it was made for me specifically.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I consider myself a "Dabbler" in HKD. For two years while in College it was at one of those schools that commonly taught TKD and HKD. Since I had a Judo and ju Jitsu background before that the throwing / Falling and Joint locking was similar. I attend HKD seminars when I can. Some of the people who gave these are fairly well known (Please forgive misspellings) Like Ji Han Jae, Kwang Sik Myung, John Pelligrini and In Sun Seo. I had to see Pelligrini because so many HKD people bad mouthed him I had to see for myself. Saw him once for that purpose and twice more because I wanted to see the other guy he was with Carlson Gracie jr. and Bill Wallace. In Sun Seo was way beyond me . found it difficult to follow his "Lessons".I find the grappling aspects compliment the striking of TKD.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Our GM holds rank in both but technically we are a tkd club. We have a good sprinkling of hapkido throughout our tkd curriculum. From what I have seen the two compliment each other nicely.

 

[WaterGal]

I have a 1st Dan in both. I think they're quite different in some ways, but also complimentary. Doing both allows you to be strong in both striking and grappling.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I have a 1st Dan in both. I think they're quite different in some ways, but also complimentary. Doing both allows you to be strong in both striking and grappling.

Strong in grappling is hard to quantify.
IMNSHO if you want to be strong in grappling Ju Jitsu is more beneficial than HKD.

 

[Instructor]

Hapkido is derived from Ju Jitsu.

It's also important to remember that Hakido grappling is not sport grappling rather, it seems designed to do maximum damage with minimum effort.

 

[Uncle]

Hapkido is derived from Ju Jitsu.

It's also important to remember that Hakido grappling is not sport grappling rather, it seems designed to do maximum damage with minimum effort.

When speaking of jujitsu it is important to keep in mind which ryu, because jujitsu is a rather large umbrella term. Hapkido comes from dairto-ryu just as aikido does.
The issue is that a lot of the moves are not high percentage even without the added problems which come with an adrenaline dump. The "sport grappling" systems as you put it generally are more effective in both situations because of the ability to rigorously test and practice techniques full force without as much Rick of damage to an opponent. Thus you generally have wrestling and bjj at the top with one excelling in takedowns and positioning and the other positioning and submissions respectively. Also included would be another jujitsu derivative, judo, which specializes in takedowns from a clinched position. These are only the "pure" grappling systems and are very good at doing "maximum damage with minimum effort" because of their rigorous testing. There are then the systems which make use of both in unique areas like, sambo (generalized), muay Thai (clinch for striking), sanda (takedowns).

 

[StudentCarl]

I have Dan rank in Taekwondo and am just a few months into Hapkido. I'm enjoying it and so far it seems to complement rather than conflict. I like that the Hapkido, at least where I train, is focused on functional use. We spar, but it's not for sport.

 

[oftheherd1]

When speaking of jujitsu it is important to keep in mind which ryu, because jujitsu is a rather large umbrella term. Hapkido comes from dairto-ryu just as aikido does.
The issue is that a lot of the moves are not high percentage even without the added problems which come with an adrenaline dump. The "sport grappling" systems as you put it generally are more effective in both situations because of the ability to rigorously test and practice techniques full force without as much Rick of damage to an opponent. Thus you generally have wrestling and bjj at the top with one excelling in takedowns and positioning and the other positioning and submissions respectively. Also included would be another jujitsu derivative, judo, which specializes in takedowns from a clinched position. These are only the "pure" grappling systems and are very good at doing "maximum damage with minimum effort" because of their rigorous testing. There are then the systems which make use of both in unique areas like, sambo (generalized), muay Thai (clinch for striking), sanda (takedowns).

I have noticed some other of your posts where you seem to believe Hapkido is of little value. Yet I didn't see it as an art you have studied or been belted in. So, I was just curious why you seem so quick to indicate that Hapkido is inferior?

 

[oftheherd1]

As to the original question, I studied TKD briefly a long time ago, but later took up HKD as my primary art. I don't know as I would say they are complimentary but I don't think they oppose each other either. There were things I learned in TKD that I think aided me in my study of HKD. But they were more in the area of attitude of learning, embracing Ki, respect for the art and teachers. I did feel that the Hapkido I learned might have benefitted some from striking techniques I took from TKD. But I feel Hapkido is a very great and effective art. I agree with Instructor that it is very business-like and will probably end any confrontation painfully for an attacker.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Hapkido is derived from Ju Jitsu.

It's also important to remember that Hakido grappling is not sport grappling rather, it seems designed to do maximum damage with minimum effort.

In theory designs are great. The titanic was designed to be unsinkable. Frankly, your point is lost on me. There is nothing against MMA rules that prohibits many HKD grappling techniques. Yet few techniques like certain wristlocks and throws that are Hapkido staples are seen. Of course many HKD techniques like arm bar which are virtually indistinguishable from their Judo or Ju Jitsu relatives are common. Can you please provide an example (outside of say fingerlocks) of some HKD techniques that are common and could not be used for sport?

 

[Instructor]

It's not about the individual techniques Earl. It's about the emphasis. The goal in hapkido is not submission, it's destruction.

 

[iron_ox]

In theory designs are great. The titanic was designed to be unsinkable. Frankly, your point is lost on me. There is nothing against MMA rules that prohibits many HKD grappling techniques. Yet few techniques like certain wristlocks and throws that are Hapkido staples are seen. Of course many HKD techniques like arm bar which are virtually indistinguishable from their Judo or Ju Jitsu relatives are common. Can you please provide an example (outside of say fingerlocks) of some HKD techniques that are common and could not be used for sport?

Master Weiss,

Very good point. And with no disrespect intended for the other Hapkido people here, it is possible that they have never seen the offensive side of the art that is not based on "grab my wrist" openings, but rather seizing of the opponent. This is in my opinion why it is so rare to see "Hapkido" people in MMA environments, because they have not been taught any other aspect of the art except the most basic stuff starting from grab motions.

There is NO grappling, per se, in Hapkido. There are sets of older style seated techniques and lying techniques that end in a variety of locks and immobilizations, but there is no component of grappling as seen in MMA.

There is no art that is "too deadly" for MMA, rather there may be in fact, as Jon says a different emphasis for the techniques, but unfortunately most have only seen the window dressing of Hapkido taught by people that left the instruction of Choi Dojunim before they had learned the entire curriculum.

 

[Uncle]

I have noticed some other of your posts where you seem to believe Hapkido is of little value. Yet I didn't see it as an art you have studied or been belted in. So, I was just curious why you seem so quick to indicate that Hapkido is inferior?

I'm not saying hapkido is inferior. I'm saying that the daito ryu joint locks and throws which require fine motor skills and/try to control an opponent's body through the limb using those fine motor skills are inferior because they don't work on trained opponents and the fine motor skills go out the window under an adrenaline dump.
Also the lack of resistant training of these techniques means the people who practice them will not have the same level of skill with them as the people sho can practice slightly safer techniques in a resistant atmosphere. These are both the reasons Kano's students beat or tied all of the other jujitsu ryus in the Tokyo police tournament.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I'm not saying hapkido is inferior. I'm saying that the daito ryu joint locks and throws which require fine motor skills and/try to control an opponent's body through the limb using those fine motor skills are inferior because they don't work on trained opponents and the fine motor skills go out the window under an adrenaline dump.

If they worked so well you could save lots of $ in the prison system. Develop a few highly trained guards and you wouldn't need to send 6-8 guys in for a cell extraction.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

If they worked so well you could save lots of $ in the prison system. Develop a few highly trained guards and you wouldn't need to send 6-8 guys in for a cell extraction.

With respect, this is an incorrect assumption. Many of the Officers and Deputies in Correctional facilities are well trained, often more than their counter-parts on the road. This is due simply to the need to go hands on more often, though with the advent of ECW's this need is somewhat diminishing. However, the reason that a CRT team employs a minimum of six Officer/Deputies is for the safety of staff as well as that of the inmate/convict. It is a highly specialized training where each position has a specific job during an extraction/relocation/chair placement. This minimizes the risk to the inmate/convict that would normally occur if there were less numbers involved or the Officers/Deputies were not clear on exactly the best way to immobilize/relocate a violent inmate. Since their inclusion in the 90's, the number of staff as well as inmate/convict injuries have dramatically gone down.

Put another way, a highly trained Officer/Deputy may be able to handle a situation solo and they often do, but why go solo when you don't have to? Better to have a well trained group that can professionally take care of a situation with the minimum of injury exposure all the way around. In the long run, a well run CRT team will save an agency/state millions of dollars in frivilous litigation/worker's compensation claims.

 

[Instructor]

In regards to adrenalin. I've had to fight for my life with little more than my Hapkido training. I just about took a knife right to my eye socket. It was plenty scary and when it was all over I was shaking like a leaf. I am certain I experienced the adrenalin dump. Happy to report my Hapkido worked just fine. It wasn't very pretty but still perfectly effective. What more could you ask for?

Also, just because a martial art isn't popular in an professional sport doesn't mean it isn't still effective. I have great respect for those athlete fighters, I would not want to tangle with one of them. But I also grow weary of MMA'rs dissing arts that they don't find valuable for their particular venue.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I'm not saying hapkido is inferior. I'm saying that the daito ryu joint locks and throws which require fine motor skills and/try to control an opponent's body through the limb using those fine motor skills are inferior because they don't work on trained opponents and the fine motor skills go out the window under an adrenaline dump.

Correct. Under duress fine motor skills become much harder to near impossible. Adrenaline dump can produce tunnel vision, auditory exclusion, and diminished dexterity in the extremities. The old adage that, 'less is more and simple is better' applies here.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

It reminds me of a bumper sticker I saw once that read "Hapkido. Aikido's ugly cousin". I really enjoy the hapkido that our GM incorporates into our curriculum, but gee its brutal. If you keep it simple its extremely effective. A high ranking police officer I train with who has worked some really bad areas swears by hapkido, he cant speak highly enough of it, but he is really good at it and watching him use it in class against random attacks is just awesome to watch. But as I said earlier, its really brutal.