TKD and Everyone Else

[Errant108]

Skepticism is healthy. Making decisions based on assumptions, however, is not.

I've seen Terry and his wife and kids train (but not his class; sadly, my mother had me too scheduled in last time I was in Dallas to see more), and they've attended my class, and worked out with my sahbum, who is a VII Dan, the student of a IX Dan, who was himself a student of Gen. Choi, Hong Hi, and at one point the VP of the USTF until his integrity caused him to resign - I have no doubts about his abilities or those of his students. I say that as a member of the YomChi Taekwon-Do Association; we came from the USTF and ITF, and left when, in our opinion, the pursuit of money overcame the quest for excellence. Terry is a quality instructor, who produces quality students. The fact that he includes the Kukkiwon curriculum in his training (note that I say "includes", not "limits himself to") does not reduce the quality of his training.

I'm glad you find his teachings valuable.

I don't know you, I don't know Yomchi, so, while I appreciate your support of your friend, it does not answer my questions.

 

[Errant108]

arguably, Errant108, the onus would be on you as well in like manner. It's relatively easy to take a video of someone's training and critique it on many levels.

I didn't make the claim.

Anyway, in fairness, it would be good to present what you consider and train as effective self-defense in your art. (if you have and I missed it, my apologies, as I've been only following this thread on occasion)

I've already offered to answer those questions, just not in this thread.

 

[Errant108]

I would like to add one thing here OK just for the record, never did I ever say I teach KKW TKD, what I said was I am KKW TKD two different gems here people.

No, you didn't. You're absolutely right.

Let's go back and review this discussion.

YoungMan states that Kukkiwon self-defense is an entirely different beast. I request more information on this Kukki SD.

Your response is to find a former ROK Marine with Kukki certification.

Logical Problem 1: ROKMC Hand-to-Hand has nothing to do with Kukkiwon certification.

Thus, my response, that if what they are teaching, re: SD, is not the official Kukkiwon curriculum, it is worthless. Meaning, it has no bearing on YoungMan's claims about Kukkiwon's self-defense.

We discuss what the Kukkiwon's curriculum entails, and you provide me with a link to bayonet vs. empty hand step-sparring. We both agree that the example is horrible.

ERGO: The Kukkiwon's OFFICIAL SD CURRICULUM is "t3h suckage" as SageGhost so eloquently put it.

Now, please, everyone follow along here:

Argument:
1) Kukkiwon has a self-defense curriculum.
2) Kukkiwon's official self-defense curriculum has been shown to train in questionable tactics and training methods.
3) Ergo, those claiming to teach Kukki Taegwondo should be regarded with great skepticism when it comes to self-defense.

Terry, you've gone on to say that you don't teach the Kukkiwon's self-defense curriculum. That removes you from that argument. What I'm left with though, is that I know nothing of what you actually teach. So, again, I'm skeptical. Show me what it is you teach in regards to using Taegwondo for self-defense.

P.S. Errant why do you choose not to see we are on the same side of the street, remember I did not say same type of training just on the street.

I haven't chosen anything.

You want functional TKD.

Great!

I'm happy for you!

Wanting it and having it are two different things. I'm glad you're confident in what you know and teach. That's not a reason I should share that confidence though. I don't know what you teach, I don't know how you train.

Look at it this way, would you recommend to a close friend that they come train with me? Without knowing a thing about what I teach or how I train?

 

[terryl965]

Errant if you came up from people that you was good Yes, the peopel I hang around know what I look for and so on. It is calle dblind trust which in these day and age it is hard to have.

I would love to find the time to come and see you and train with you. I am not being funny just I love to see what other people have to offer. Like I said for the most part mt SD is a mix of alot of what works for me, so whether it would work for you who know, I am sure we could learn from each other though.

By the way I appreciate all the courtesy you have shown during this converstation.:asian:

 

[Errant108]

Errant if you came up from people that you was good Yes, the peopel I hang around know what I look for and so on. It is calle dblind trust which in these day and age it is hard to have.

Blind trust is something I don't value. Difference of opinion, I suppose.

I would love to find the time to come and see you and train with you. I am not being funny just I love to see what other people have to offer. Like I said for the most part mt SD is a mix of alot of what works for me, so whether it would work for you who know, I am sure we could learn from each other though.

I'm looking at having a seminar weekend with other instructors later this summer. I'll keep you in the loop.

By the way I appreciate all the courtesy you have shown during this converstation.:asian:

No worries.

Like I said, it was never a personal attack.

 

[SageGhost83]

1) You have not understood a thing I've said. You've misinterpreted everything I stated as an attack on Terry, rather than actually trying to understand what I said. I haven't attacked Terry at all, or accused him of teaching anything.

B) Rather than respond with logical discourse, you'd prefer to attempt to derail by inquiring as to what my motivations may be, red herring and ad hom, all rolled into one.

If you're not interested in logical, rational, adult discourse, please do not waste my time any further.

The irony is that the person I originally addressed has not said a thing since I called him out.



http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2068450760833041053

Watch the whole video.

I have not made any blind assumptions. Go back to my analysis of what was offered to me of "self-defense".

An aliveness video. That is nice. The man in the video showed a clear lack of understanding concerning the very purpose of forms to begin with, and he failed to understand that you can practice forms *and* work alive training into what you do - that is certainly how I do it. They train two different areas, but they are both proven training methods in their respective areas, so why toss either one? Heck, I even put the two together at times just to mix it up and add an extra dimension to my forms training. You don't have to choose one or the other, you can do both and reap the benefits of both. Boxers work aliveness training in via sparring, and they also shadowbox which is just about as alive as forms training. I still don't see what you are trying to say concerning suckage, I thought that you were going to define it in your own words rather than hide behind another man's video. So you are saying that anything that isn't practiced alive constitutes "suckage"? Well kind sir, in the area of SD, I must agree with you hands down, and to say yet again that everybody here agreed with you from the start (do you see the pattern here? We are more friend than foe to you concerning this subject). Btw, your blind assumptions were concerning Terry's training just simply because he was affiliated with a certain org. You didn't train with him, yet proceeded to implicate that what he teaches is not adequate self-defense even though you didn't know what he taught in the first place. He incorporates LEO and CQC into his training, but you obviously didn't think to even ask him about his training before just ignorantly assuming things about him that were not true and that is the point - you don't know how everybody works their SD. There are crap schools out there, but that is true for any and every art. That is the reality of living in a western capitalist society - some people open schools just to make a buck and they aren't concerned with the finer points of the martial arts (and sometimes not even the basic points ). There are a lot of crappy JKD and MMA schools out there too, the latter of which teach what a lot of us like to call "crappling". TKD is the most popular art in the world so naturally there are going to be far more crap schools out there trying to cash in on TKD's popularity. I don't think that such things constitute a viable weakness of the art itself, but rather they highlight a detrimental trend within the martial arts community as a whole. This trend is what you, I, StuartA, Terry, Exile...All of us...are trying to combat in our own ways as it leads to the whole pay-your-way-through-while-not-really-recieving-good-training conundrum. So we are doing exactly what you are doing - calling people out and holding them accountable for crappy training, and we are also ensuring that our own training addresses SD in a practical, alive way. Terry has LEO and CQC training, I have years of training in Jun Fan JKD, Wing Chun, and Escrima along with the H2H combat methods I have learned in the military. Trust me, these things go into our training as self defense. The ROK marines most certainly do the same, as well. Speaking of ROK marines - Youngman, this whole thing started with you and Errant, so when are you going to address his original contention?

 

[SageGhost83]

And to add, whenever something becomes prominent in the martial arts community, there are those who try to cash in on it and offer haphazard versions of it just because they know people will be duped by the name alone. Reality based self defense, for instance. Jim Wagner brought a lot of mainstream attention to it with his program, now there are so many people putting out their own versions to cash in on his success that it isn't even funny, and just like in TKD, there are a lot of god awful versions that will just get you in serious trouble or just plain get you killed. However, just like in TKD, there are also a lot of good ones that are legit and will give you good SD skills. The problem is that in TKD at this time, there are more of the former than the latter, and this gives fuel for many people to just label the entire style as crap when the original product isn't crap and has just suffered a horrible image from those who teach crap versions of it. It also provides the basis of many a gross generalizaton and misinformed assumption of what the style is to begin with. Think about how many bad examples of JKD exist, now imagine a whole boat load of schools opening up everywhere and teaching those bad examples of JKD just to cash in on the JKD name alone, not to mention that its associated with Bruce Lee and everybody wants to be able to fight like Bruce Lee (I was being sarcastic with the Bruce Lee thing, btw). It wouldn't be fair to generalize and say that *all* JKD sucks because of what goes on in the bad schools despite the fact that there are good schools that teach JKD as it was meant to be taught, or at least in a manner that will provide you with viable SD skills. The style itself doesn't suck - a lot of the instructors who teach crappy versions of the style suck and this is where the real blame lies and where the real change has to begin.

 

[SageGhost83]

Think about how many bad examples of JKD exist, now imagine a whole boat load of schools opening up everywhere and teaching those bad examples of JKD just to cash in on the JKD name alone, not to mention that its associated with Bruce Lee and everybody wants to be able to fight like Bruce Lee (I was being sarcastic with the Bruce Lee thing, btw). It wouldn't be fair to generalize and say that *all* JKD sucks because of what goes on in the bad schools despite the fact that there are good schools that teach JKD as it was meant to be taught, or at least in a manner that will provide you with viable SD skills.

And in keeping with this example, let's say that somebody accuses somebody who is well versed in JKD, trains with full aliveness and resistance, and is extremely capable in self defense, of teaching inadequate self-defense just becuase that person is affiliated with a particular org. Or better yet, how about if somebody accuses our good friend in the JKD vid of teaching and training crap self defense just because, and staying with the example in the quote, they have seen a lot of crappy JKD schools and assume that what he teaches and how he trains is crap merely by association, even though what he teaches and how he trains really is legit and is different from what is taught in the crap schools. Now, imagine if people held on to one of the two above misguided views religiously and used it to attack JKD, and everybody who practices JKD, relentlessly. Such is the reality of TKD :asian:.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Chris and everyone else please let me say this one more time, we do not run the KKW curriculum we just get those that need the KKW certs for competition only. I do the Tae Gueks,Palgues and the Chom-Ji sets of poomsae and do my style of Self defense which is totally different than anything the KKW does. I hope this helps but somehow I really doubt it.

Ah, I see. I just got the impression form Kacey's post that you taught KKW material "plus" (i.e., with added stuff to round out the curriculum). My only point was that this was something I've seen done by people who are very highly ranked by the KKW itself.

Pax,

Chris

 

[chrispillertkd]

Actually, GM Lang started under David Kim (if I'm recalling the man's name correctly) at CU-Boulder; at one point, he was training simultaneously under his first instructor and GM Sereff. As some point he became a student of Gen. Choi; if you look at my post I didn't say when, just that it happened.

Heh, that's why I asked if you knew when it occured I wasn't trying to stir up trouble, I was just curious, as I know GM Lang was a long time student of GM Sereff's before forming Yom Chi. I remember seeing him wearing then-Master Sereff's VI dan belt back in 1993 when I was at the USTF world camp, in fact, which is something that's only done for long-time, very close students. (He was pretty impressive at the camp, too, btw.)

Pax,

Chris

 

[Errant108]

An aliveness video. That is nice. The man in the video showed a clear lack of understanding concerning the very purpose of forms to begin with, and he failed to understand that you can practice forms *and* work alive training into what you do - that is certainly how I do it.

Strawman.

He never mentioned form training. He mentioned dead training. You inferred forms.

Boxers work aliveness training in via sparring, and they also shadowbox which is just about as alive as forms training.

Shadowboxing is spontaneous, forms are rote.

I still don't see what you are trying to say concerning suckage, I thought that you were going to define it in your own words rather than hide behind another man's video.

I never said anything concerning "suckage", those were words you put in my mouth. Matt Thorton's video sums up everything I wanted to say rather nicely. If you want to accuse me of hiding, fine. Continue making personal attacks all you want. I'd rather have an adult conversation.

So you are saying that anything that isn't practiced alive constitutes "suckage"? Well kind sir, in the area of SD, I must agree with you hands down, and to say yet again that everybody here agreed with you from the start (do you see the pattern here? We are more friend than foe to you concerning this subject).

Scroll up and read what I said again. Take your emotional responses out of it. Just read what I said.

You're the one drawing the line between you & I. Not me.

Btw, your blind assumptions were concerning Terry's training just simply because he was affiliated with a certain org. You didn't train with him, yet proceeded to implicate that what he teaches is not adequate self-defense even though you didn't know what he taught in the first place.

Again, go up and read what I said. I didn't assume anything about Terry or his training. I used a simple logical forumula, an if/then statement. That is not an implication, it is not an accusation.

Again, one more time:

YoungMan states that Kukkiwon self-defense is an entirely different beast. I request more information on this Kukki SD.

Terry's response is to find a former ROK Marine with Kukki certification.

Logical Problem 1: ROKMC Hand-to-Hand has nothing to do with Kukkiwon certification.

Thus, my response, that if what they are teaching, re: SD, is not the official Kukkiwon curriculum, it is worthless. Meaning, it has no bearing on YoungMan's claims about Kukkiwon's self-defense.

We discuss what the Kukkiwon's curriculum entails, and Terry provides me with a link to bayonet vs. empty hand step-sparring. We both agree that the example is horrible.

ERGO: The Kukkiwon's OFFICIAL SD CURRICULUM is "t3h suckage" as SageGhost so eloquently put it.

Now, please, everyone follow along here:

Argument:
1) Kukkiwon has a self-defense curriculum.
2) Kukkiwon's official self-defense curriculum has been shown to train in questionable tactics and training methods.
3) Ergo, those claiming to teach Kukki Taegwondo should be regarded with great skepticism when it comes to self-defense.

Do you understand?

He incorporates LEO and CQC into his training, but you obviously didn't think to even ask him about his training before just ignorantly assuming things about him that were not true and that is the point - you don't know how everybody works their SD.

I didn't assume anything.

Please, SG, read what I actually said.

There are a lot of crappy JKD and MMA schools out there too, the latter of which teach what a lot of us like to call "crappling".

I don't think you understand this term. I'm from the place that coined it. It refers to TMA schools trying to cash in on the grappling/MMA hype by teaching a sub-par curriculum that they've either a) learned through seminars, b) tried to pass off standing grappling skills on the ground without understanding the fundamental differences in ground work, c) creating a grappling curriculum by buying Gracie books & trying to teach themselves.

Now, please, SageGhost. Take the time to actually read and comprehend what I've written. Your counterarguments have been nothing but strawmen and ad hominum attacks. Terry & I don't seem to have that problem.

 

[SageGhost83]

I was going to go in-depth and address every single point you made, but then I wondered what the point of it would be because we'd just keep going around in circles and I'd just keep getting on your nerves. So, seeing as how we really see eye to eye on the core issue at hand, I will humbly bow to you out of respect and leave you be :asian:.

 

[terryl965]

It is nice to see everybody agree's about the core of SD princeple. Now lets go have a beer and watch UFC:asian:.

 

[Twin Fist]

UFC?

that sucks..................







































*ducks*

 

[SageGhost83]

It is nice to see everybody agree's about the core of SD princeple. Now lets go have a beer and watch UFC:asian:.

Sounds like a plan to me! Hey Errant, this one is on me, buddy :drinkbeer.

 

[SageGhost83]

UFC?

that sucks..................







































*ducks*

Blasphemy! :xtrmshock:boxing::lol2:

 

[terryl965]

Yea but sometimes they have a great fight anyway it involves Beer,opcorn::drinkbeer:drinkbeer:drinkbeer:drinkbeer:drinkbeer

 

[Twin Fist]

mmmmmmmmmmmmm...................Beer

cold

foamy

happy..........

 

[Errant108]

I do not believe any of you have the real beer, since you are certified through a beer association which offers beer that is "the suckage". I will remain skeptical until you actually buy me this beer, and taste it for myself.

 

[Windsinger]

I do not believe any of you have the real beer, since you are certified through a beer association which offers beer that is "the suckage". I will remain skeptical until you actually buy me this beer, and taste it for myself.

:duh::lool:

:bow:
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