The Taeguek Cipher - Book Review

[StuartA]

Yes, motion 12A is the first step of the scissors block and is done in a forward extended stance (or deep front stance or however you call it). Also the 12A and 12B are really one move. Also both arm motions in 12A are executed simultaneously...

...So...it would appear to me at least that....Taegeuk Chil-Jang uses a scissors block and your App 1 uses a a scissors block but the similarity in the motions is fairly broad

FF, you thinking is too confined..
1. I dont know how long the forward stance is that you use in the actual pattern, but it simply indicates a forward motion.. it doesnt have to be superlong, just solid at the impact.. besides, how long is an arm.. who can say as different people have different lengths.

2. I used the right arm simply as reference to describe.. it can be utilized with either arm.. more so as the block is repeated

3. Furthermore, just because the pattern starts with the left arm up, it doesnt mean this is the first block.. 12a could be the setting prior to 12b (which would catch the arm) on its downward motion, with 13a the lock behind the back and the extra stance indicating you move to need closer still (which often you do), to keep it tight... shift forward to 12b, 13a, 13b for right arm application

Take it as you will, but I just experimented with it and it fits the pattern diagram easily.

Stuart

 

[StuartA]

can someone tell me in Taegeuk 5, after the sidekick, what's the slapping of the elbow for? lol.

In the Chang Hon tul its usually a grab (to head/back of head) in order to pull it onto (or keep it in place) for the elbow strike!

Stuart

 

[StuartA]

Stuart,
I know pull is a standard release technique. Yet many folks (including SJON in his book) ignore it in Tae Guek Oh jang in favor of something else.

Ill leave Simon to comment on that himself, all I would say is that its one of the few applications taught as standard in TKD that actually works, that said "block punch with mid block" is also taught as standard.. neither mean when the moved was first put in, this was the application for it precisely, just that they found one that works (though there are many more that dont - hence my reasoning).

More more interesting is how you commented on the first part of my reply, but ignored the last part... because Master GM Park uses a step as a foot stamp (showing he is open to interetation unless its perfromed as an actual stamp int he pattern, does this mean:
a. Your show it as a foot stamp as well, even though it isnt in the pattern as one?
b. That your be more open to applications as well, like GM Park?
-- I ask the above as your logic was what GM Park does, your okay with

Stuart

 

[SJON]

Are we talking about the low block, pull back and descending hammer at the beginning of Taegeuk 5?

The reason I don’t contemplate a “pull out” release there is that I can’t think of any reason for being in that position in the first place, i.e. standing in a long stance with your weight forward and someone in front of you holding your wrist at low level.

That thing about the foot stomp and pull on to the forward backfist … stomping is cool, defending with the “preparation” of the move is cool, but I’m not at all convinced. Why the unstable X-stance? Why not hit him with something that’s going to put him out instead of just annoy him?

 

[IcemanSK]

More more interesting is how you commented on the first part of my reply, but ignored the last part... because Master GM Park uses a step as a foot stamp (showing he is open to interetation unless its perfromed as an actual stamp int he pattern, does this mean:
a. Your show it as a foot stamp as well, even though it isnt in the pattern as one?
b. That your be more open to applications as well, like GM Park?
-- I ask the above as your logic was what GM Park does, your okay with

Stuart

Don't read too much into my not commenting on the foot stomp, Stuart. It was a busy day.

In the video, GM Park used a foot stomp after the front kick & before the backfist at the end of Oh jang. I've seen it interpreted in many ways. I'm open to other interpretations, but I don't give them all the same weight. For me, his interpretations have weight because of who he is in relation to the poomsae.

 

[Kwanjang]

This is all great discussion. I was speaking to a friend of mine over the weekend regarding this particular thread.

1. As far as the k/p/b applications and the 'distance' thing referred to in TG1- As an example, Part of learning TKD requires learning adequate distance. (how long your legs and arms are) Lest we forget 'real life' SD requires a constant re-assessment of the situation at hand and re-adjusting your distance, as the situation necessitates. In real life no technique will be 'textbook perfect'

2. TKD is in fact, a striking art first! There are 'some' take downs. The older GM, like GM Park, GM Uhm, GM Nam Tae HI and the Late Nam Suk Lee were taught either jujitsu or practiced hapkido and are competent if you get in close-they could throw you or break your arm with a wrist lock.
a beginning student (white-green) does not have the repetitions to throw someone.

3. Instead of the hours endless discussion, and point-counter point at the keyboard. To truly know the poomse- How about just practicing them. There has been, in my opinion, a lot of wasted time pontificating and speculating about things beyond k/p/b.

Stuart,

I am not trying to start an argument, but you commented on a ’little spinny
thing' in one of my videos on my web site. First of all, it was for a
demonstration purposes. Secondly, it was based on a formal technique I was
taught by my Instructors. I have also looked at videos on your web-site and
I could make some cute comments- but out of respect, I won’t.

 

[YoungMan]

And that's one of my main points. Unless you've spoken with Hae Man Park and his colleagues and got it straight from them about what something is doing in a form, you're just using conjecture (this is what I believe this move is based on my interpretation). You may be correct or incorrect.
Do not say "I don't see the point for this move" unless you know for sure what it's doing and the reason behind it. I've practiced with GM Park, and it was a real eyeopener because what you may have thought a move was doing turned out to be different.

 

[StuartA]

Don't read too much into my not commenting on the foot stomp, Stuart. It was a busy day.

Fair enough, thanks for explaining

In the video, GM Park used a foot stomp after the front kick & before the backfist at the end of Oh jang. I've seen it interpreted in many ways. I'm open to other interpretations, but I don't give them all the same weight. For me, his interpretations have weight because of who he is in relation to the poomsae.

I know you have a great deal of respect for GM Park and Im not trying to dismiss his knowledge or be disresepctful (hence why in other posts I try to shift the focus to a general sense rather than a single person), but what I get from this is that no matter what the application, good or bad, if GM Park says its okay, then thats it... where as, if anyone else (whose not GM Park) disputes an application or offers a good/better one, then its largely dismissed due to their non-position of authority on the subject!!!

Stuart

 

[SJON]

1. As far as the k/p/b applications and the 'distance' thing referred to in TG1- As an example, Part of learning TKD requires learning adequate distance. (how long your legs and arms are) Lest we forget 'real life' SD requires a constant re-assessment of the situation at hand and re-adjusting your distance, as the situation necessitates. In real life no technique will be 'textbook perfect'

I fully agree that nothing will be textbook perfect in real life. However, you would need to be proportioned like an orang-utan for the Taegeuk 1 rising block sequences to work “as is”. The alternative would be to block at close range, jump back, kick, and jump forward again to punch. This does not seem particularly practical or efficient.

2. TKD is in fact, a striking art first!

Agreed.

There are 'some' take downs. The older GM, like GM Park, GM Uhm, GM Nam Tae HI and the Late Nam Suk Lee were taught either jujitsu or practiced hapkido and are competent if you get in close-they could throw you or break your arm with a wrist lock.

I agree, and this practice informed their KSD/TSD/TKD.

a beginning student (white-green) does not have the repetitions to throw someone.

Really? Surely that depends on whether you actually include throws in training or not.

3. Instead of the hours endless discussion, and point-counter point at the keyboard. To truly know the poomse- How about just practicing them. There has been, in my opinion, a lot of wasted time pontificating and speculating about things beyond k/p/b.

If you’re happy to keep it K/B/P, fine. But I’ll ask you again, are you personally truly confident that every one of those K/B/P interpretations will resolve a physical conflict in your favour? To what extent have you pressure tested them against someone really trying to hit you with the type of attacks that are actually used in violent situations (i.e. not lunge punches)?

I think this is an interesting and useful discussion. And I don’t think anybody is “pontificating” on anything.

And that's one of my main points. Unless you've spoken with Hae Man Park and his colleagues and got it straight from them about what something is doing in a form, you're just using conjecture (this is what I believe this move is based on my interpretation). You may be correct or incorrect.
Do not say "I don't see the point for this move" unless you know for sure what it's doing and the reason behind it. I've practiced with GM Park, and it was a real eyeopener because what you may have thought a move was doing turned out to be different.

YoungMan,

You’ve said that before, and I answered that yes, it is hypothesis (not conjecture, though – I trust you are aware of the difference). I asked you why in the world I shouldn’t do it. You did not answer, so I’ll ask you again. On what authority are you telling me what I may and may not do regarding the poomses? Just because you have trained with GM Park? What makes you think he gave you, or any of your contemporaries, the full story?

I have a bit of a problem with this idea that we have some kind of moral obligation towards particular individuals, groups or – heaven forbid – nations, simply because they were the originators of a particular method or other phenomenon. To me, that is cult-like thinking. I have a particularly hard time when the material in question has been used in an intensely commercial fashion, and has – to my mind – been presented against all logic in such a way that could actual endanger people’s physical well-being should they choose to trust the official K/B/P explanations and the “it works if you train hard enough” approach.

I do not need permission to use something which – let’s be clear on this – has been sold to me, in whichever way I feel to be appropriate. I don’t believe I am attacking or insulting anybody, and I do believe I am offering something which can in fact be useful and enjoyable to a lot of people.

Just a few thoughts.

Cheers,

Simon

 

[StuartA]

Some good points Kwanjang,

This is all great discussion. I was speaking to a friend of mine over the weekend regarding this particular thread.

1. As far as the k/p/b applications and the 'distance' thing referred to in TG1- As an example, Part of learning TKD requires learning adequate distance. (how long your legs and arms are) Lest we forget 'real life' SD requires a constant re-assessment of the situation at hand and re-adjusting your distance, as the situation necessitates. In real life no technique will be 'textbook perfect'

- isnt that the said, same reason why there can be different intepretations of patterns (something I touched upon in my response about the scissor block app)

2. TKD is in fact, a striking art first! There are 'some' take downs. The older GM, like GM Park, GM Uhm, GM Nam Tae HI and the Late Nam Suk Lee were taught either jujitsu or practiced hapkido and are competent if you get in close-they could throw you or break your arm with a wrist lock. a beginning student (white-green) does not have the repetitions to throw someone.

They would if they practiced them.. again, thats part of what patterns are for.. repetition of techniques. that said, I feel they should be practiced away from patterns also, but then so should all techniques.

3. Instead of the hours endless discussion, and point-counter point at the keyboard. To truly know the poomse- How about just practicing them. There has been, in my opinion, a lot of wasted time pontificating and speculating about things beyond k/p/b.

Discussion is what forums are for! Secondly, you can practice something for a lifetime, but if you practice it one way, it will simply remain that way.. and students that dont question and simply follow the status quo will remain the same no matter how long they practice. Thats how patterns got to where they are now in both Karate and TKD.

I am not trying to start an argument, but you commented on a ’little spinny thing' in one of my videos on my web site.

That was ages/pages back now.. it had a smiley to show it was tongue in cheek as we we talking about the reality of SD if I recall correctly!

First of all, it was for demonstration purposes.

Now I'm simply intrigued... demonstrating what exactly?

Secondly, it was based on a formal technique I was
taught by my Instructors.

The technique I saw and that was nice, just didnt get the spinny part is all.. though like I said, it wasnt a critcism, just a tongue in cheek comment - sorry.. thought you`d notice the smiley.

I have also looked at videos on your web-site and
I could make some cute comments- but out of respect, I won’t.

Honestly, feel free, I wouldnt put them up there if I could take critcism.. Im a warts and all kinda guy!

Stuart

 

[StuartA]

Dam, Simon posted quicker than me

Another Point: Doesnt the Kukkikwon text book have applications listed for each taeguek? If so, it would be easy to reference how good/bad they are.

One of you guys must have a copy right?

Stuart

 

[terryl965]

Dam, Simion posted quicker than me

Another Point: Doesnt the Kukkikwon text book have applications listed for each taeguek? If so, it would be easy to reference how good/bad they are.

One of you guys must have a copy right?

Stuart

Yes I do at the school and will post it tonight for everyone.

 

[StuartA]

Yes I do at the school and will post it tonight for everyone.

Cool, thats great Terry. Tell you what, as I dont know the Taegueks, I'll have a look at some pattern disgrams and select a couple of moves, from there we can discuss:

a. The text book offical app
b. Simons app for same
c. I can give my view if they are found in the Chnag Hon tul
d. Any others people may have learnt (Youngman, Kwanjang and everyone elses view of what they have been taught would be good here if it differs from the official text book explanation or even if it doesnt)

Should be interesting. Ill do it before go training tonight, so everyone has a chance to respond. I dont have the text book and Im not even gonna reference Simons book.. Im gonna go tye "Taeguek" into google images now and pick a few out at random.

After then next post, everyone can go check them out and we can compile one post with all the replies, then discuss them.

Sounds a good idea right?

Stuart

 

[StuartA]

Okay, here they are. I typed "Taeguek" in google images and the first 3 (viewable) diagrams that came up, I selected a few techniques from:

Number 1: Taken from Taeguek Yi jang 2
http://www.blackbeltcollege.com/Taeguek.Ee.Jang.jpg
Moves: 11 & 12


Number 2: Taken from Taeguek 7 (I think)
http://www.northwest-taekwondo.co.uk/downloads/tk7.jpghttp://www.kimstkd-ca.com/Blue-taegeuk.gif
Moves: 4,5 & 6


Number 3: Taken from Taeguek 4 (I think)
http://lh5.ggpht.com/raztkdclub/R5SqIYKrmBI/AAAAAAAAADs/neUoNlKqNak/s800/taegeuk+04.jpg
Moves: 4,5 (and 6 if it works in a combination)


There ya go, gotta go, got a class in half an hour. Ill check back later.

Stuart

 

[bluekey88]

I'm in

 

[zDom]

Random thoughts after skimming this thread:

I feel fortunate that my TKD instructor provided information on what questionable movements actually are and other plausible applications for movements.

I can see how some students and even instructors may find this book a valuable resource (for example, the guy who didn't know what was going on with the elbow strike into the palm on taekguek 5!)


but

I take issue with the notion that the surface applications "don't work against a committed attacker" (too many posts to dig through and find where that was said and by whom).

If your high block isn't working, then I would suggest that you may be doing it wrong. It works fine for ME.

Likewise, I found a low block worked quite well against a committed attacker during a full-contact Olympic-style match, exactly as instructed. It was so effective he limped out of the match.

Also, while some movements may indicate a placeholder for a throw, I would doubt someone's ability to execute a throw based solely on practicing a poomsea and knowing that a movement is also a throw. There is no substitute for throwing people when it comes to learning how to throw people, IMO.

And finally, while there ARE useful alternative uses for many of the movements, I would encourage us all to remember that the surface explanations are quite useful in and of themselves and that:

"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar"

 

[SJON]

Hi zDom.

I appreciate and generally agree with your comments. I'd just like to point out a couple of things.

1. Nobody is saying the individual movements won't work. Sure, a high block will work just fine against a high punch. A low block might even work fine against a kick (although I certainly wouldn't try it, as I'm a svelte customer and my bone structure is fairly light). What I'm saying is that the SEQUENCES shown in the patterns don't work very well when taken as K/B/P, and therefore tend to demand a more realistic explanation. I'm also saying that even though the conventional explanations of individual movements can be made to work with varying degrees of training, these are generally not their most effective uses.

2. Nobody is saying that just by doing a pattern you're going to become proficient in the actual application of any technique, least of all unfamiliar (to conventional TKD) techniques like throws. Of course you have to practice throwing people. How could it be otherwise?

Cheers,

Simon

 

[StuartA]

Good post zDom, except for:

Likewise, I found a low block worked quite well against a committed attacker during a full-contact Olympic-style match, exactly as instructed. It was so effective he limped out of the match.

Something working in a tournament, is very different from a committed attack from a thug. Tournament attacks are limited and follow specific rulesets (which is the amin reason WTF'ers keep their hands by their sides) and fit a standard profile, street attacks are not.. just because something works in one arena, it doesnt mean it will work in another.

Also, while some movements may indicate a placeholder for a throw, I would doubt someone's ability to execute a throw based solely on practicing a poomsea and knowing that a movement is also a throw. There is no substitute for throwing people when it comes to learning how to throw people, IMO.

As Simon quite rightly pointed out, throws (and in fact all applications) need to be drilled individually.. solo patterns practice is just a single stage in the process, in fact, the very first stage.

And finally, while there ARE useful alternative uses for many of the movements, I would encourage us all to remember that the surface explanations are quite useful in and of themselves and that:

"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar"

Quite agree... except when its a cigerrette though

Stuart

 

[terryl965]

Okay, here they are. I typed "Taeguek" in google images and the first 3 (viewable) diagrams that came up, I selected a few techniques from:

Number 1: Taken from Taeguek Yi jang 2
http://www.blackbeltcollege.com/Taeguek.Ee.Jang.jpg
Moves: 11 & 12

Ok this is form the Kukkiwon Text Book AuthorKim Un-yong register number 13-27. March 25 1973 english edition published August 25 2002.

When the opponet delivers an Olguljireugi, one performs an Olgulmakki, One inflicts a counterattack by an apchagi and, pursuing the opponet and then delivers a monitoring Bandaemakki.



Number 2: Taken from Taeguek 7 (I think)
http://www.northwest-taekwondo.co.uk/downloads/tk7.jpg
Moves: 4,5 & 6

Defends by a nulomakki, drawspulling, and delivers a pyonsonkkeut sewotzireugi.

When the opponet delivers a montong barojireugi consecultively.

Number 3: Taken from Taeguek 4 (I think)
http://lh5.ggpht.com/raztkdclub/R5SqIYKrmBI/AAAAAAAAADs/neUoNlKqNak/s800/taegeuk+04.jpg
Moves: 4,5 (and 6 if it works in a combination)

Defends by a nulomakki, drawspulling, and delivers a pyonsonkkeut sewotzireugi.





There ya go, gotta go, got a class in half an hour. Ill check back later.

Stuart

I hope this helps out will be back after classes and I wil take it home just in case.

 

[StuartA]

Cheers Terry, though perhaps an Englsih translation as ITF terminology is different than WTF and I dont wanna guess, even though a few of the terms seem similar.

Thanks,

Stuart

Ps. Whats Drawspulling?
PPs. For numbers 2 & 3... "defends" what exactly?