The Taeguek Cipher - Book Review

[StuartA]

Apart from Terrys, there are few replies yet. However, I will make seperate posts for the 'comparisons' so as not to dilute this thread more than needed, as an extra, Ill look up the applications of the ITF as well (if I can find suitable equivilants).

So get posting.. Ill link the threads here when done, for a final anaylsis of it all.. should prove interesting, so hope your all up for it!

Stuart

Ps. Feel free to PM me your results if you wish

 

[Ninjamom]

Stuart, et al.,

FYI the Kukkiwon (World HQ for WTF TKD) has an official website that lists all the poomsae, broken down by individual motions (both diagrams and lists of techniques), with applications of select movements and videos as well.

http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/english/information/information04_03.jsp?div=04

You can select any poomsae from the list, then click one of the four subheadings (Description, Summary, Application, Video) for specific information.

Given the depth of the discussion here, I think you will find many of the official applications to be ... er .... embarrassing.

 

[YoungMan]

I fully agree that nothing will be textbook perfect in real life. However, you would need to be proportioned like an orang-utan for the Taegeuk 1 rising block sequences to work “as is”. The alternative would be to block at close range, jump back, kick, and jump forward again to punch. This does not seem particularly practical or efficient.



Agreed.



I agree, and this practice informed their KSD/TSD/TKD.



Really? Surely that depends on whether you actually include throws in training or not.



If you’re happy to keep it K/B/P, fine. But I’ll ask you again, are you personally truly confident that every one of those K/B/P interpretations will resolve a physical conflict in your favour? To what extent have you pressure tested them against someone really trying to hit you with the type of attacks that are actually used in violent situations (i.e. not lunge punches)?

I think this is an interesting and useful discussion. And I don’t think anybody is “pontificating” on anything.



YoungMan,

You’ve said that before, and I answered that yes, it is hypothesis (not conjecture, though – I trust you are aware of the difference). I asked you why in the world I shouldn’t do it. You did not answer, so I’ll ask you again. On what authority are you telling me what I may and may not do regarding the poomses? Just because you have trained with GM Park? What makes you think he gave you, or any of your contemporaries, the full story?

I have a bit of a problem with this idea that we have some kind of moral obligation towards particular individuals, groups or – heaven forbid – nations, simply because they were the originators of a particular method or other phenomenon. To me, that is cult-like thinking. I have a particularly hard time when the material in question has been used in an intensely commercial fashion, and has – to my mind – been presented against all logic in such a way that could actual endanger people’s physical well-being should they choose to trust the official K/B/P explanations and the “it works if you train hard enough” approach.

I do not need permission to use something which – let’s be clear on this – has been sold to me, in whichever way I feel to be appropriate. I don’t believe I am attacking or insulting anybody, and I do believe I am offering something which can in fact be useful and enjoyable to a lot of people.

Just a few thoughts.

Cheers,

Simon

Simon,
just curious: are you an ITF student or certified through the Kukkiwon? I am not ITF, and would not be presumptuous as to tell an ITF student what their form is doing.

 

[SJON]

Am I an ITF student? What makes you think that? Unlikely, given that I wrote a book with "Taegeuk" in the title, wouldn't you say? Perhaps we should ask Stuart if he's a closet KKW person, just in case he is presuming to conjecture on the Chang Hon patterns without sufficient moral authority ...

I nominally belong to the KKW/WTF-affiliated Spanish Taekwondo Federation. The Taegeuk and other KKW poomses are the ones I habitually train in.

If that satisfies your curiosity, perhaps you'd like to comment on the content of the posts rather than sidestepping. I have no desire to be antagonistic, but I must say I find the tone of your posts a little dismissive, without actually putting any counterarguments of substance on the table.

Cheers,

Simon

 

[terryl965]

Simon,
just curious: are you an ITF student or certified through the Kukkiwon? I am not ITF, and would not be presumptuous as to tell an ITF student what their form is doing.

Let me ask this question, Are you KKW or WTF. Lets analize this the KKW is a rank mill noq a days all they really do anymore is give rank to anybody without any verication, so they are a processing center, that does help with the bare minium of requirements. The WTF is nothing more than an org. that oversee'a the sport rules for competition, nothing more nothing less. Simon wrote a book about the Tae Gueks which means KKW, if he was ITF he would not even be doing the Tae Gueks, the stances would be wrong in every poomsae. To me you are trying the old bait and switch here. So lets stay on topic and will some of the others please list some of there application to the poomsae in qestio. This makes me feel that all people do is learn the movement and they absolutely have no clue about application. Because if they did they would be talking application instead of all this B.S. about which org. Carry on Please.

 

[StuartA]

Stuart, et al.,

FYI the Kukkiwon (World HQ for WTF TKD) has an official website that lists all the poomsae, broken down by individual motions (both diagrams and lists of techniques), with applications of select movements and videos as well.

http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/english/information/information04_03.jsp?div=04

You can select any poomsae from the list, then click one of the four subheadings (Description, Summary, Application, Video) for specific information.

Given the depth of the discussion here, I think you will find many of the official applications to be ... er .... embarrassing.

Thanks Ninjamom... I'll add that as a reference as well. Unfortunatly they dont seem to show an app for every move, but I will try and utilise what they do show, as well as Terrys stuff from the book.

Cheers,

Stuart

 

[StuartA]

So lets stay on topic

Yes... lets.

Terry - can you put the applications (not the attacks) in the writtern text book in English.

Simon - Can you list any apps to the moves you have in your book + any other thoughts

Kwanjang, Youngman, Exile, Bluekey88 + everyone else, please have a look and give any apps you have been taught.

I went through the ITF Encys last night, and the KKW web site just now, so will shortly list stuff - please see http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=68512 for further info.

In the meantime, Ill start compiling all the info ready to post.

thanks,

Stuart

 

[StuartA]

Simon,
just curious: are you an ITF student or certified through the Kukkiwon? I am not ITF, and would not be presumptuous as to tell an ITF student what their form is doing.

Hes not telling, he suggesting. And learning from as many sources as possible is a good thing, more so if it corrects something thats poor in the first place, for something better!

Anyway... lets move on with the experiemnt shall we.. Youngman, your insights will be greatly appreciated and helpful if you could participate.

Stuart

 

[terryl965]

OK will list some more and put it in english terms.

 

[bluekey88]

Okay, here they are. I typed "Taeguek" in google images and the first 3 (viewable) diagrams that came up, I selected a few techniques from:

Number 1: Taken from Taeguek Yi jang 2
http://www.blackbeltcollege.com/Taeguek.Ee.Jang.jpg
Moves: 11 & 12


Number 2: Taken from Taeguek 7 (I think)
http://www.northwest-taekwondo.co.uk/downloads/tk7.jpg
Moves: 4,5 & 6


Number 3: Taken from Taeguek 4 (I think)
http://lh5.ggpht.com/raztkdclub/R5SqIYKrmBI/AAAAAAAAADs/neUoNlKqNak/s800/taegeuk+04.jpg
Moves: 4,5 (and 6 if it works in a combination)


There ya go, gotta go, got a class in half an hour. Ill check back later.

Stuart

Well, in my school, we don't do much in the way of in depth analyses of poomse. It's something I';ve always felt was lacking and have worked hard to to try to research this. I just go tpermission from my instructor to put together an 8 week seminar on poomse analyses for SD. If it goes well, my instructor wants to work this stuff into the BB curriculum.

Anyway, most of what I know is of the K-B-P variety. I still struggle witht he creation of more in-depth moves without resortinbg to previosu Aikido and karate training.

In the first example, the kbp applicatino is two block parrying high level punches to the face. the more in depth analyuses (pretty much what Mr. O'neil writes) could be using the chamber hand of the first high block to pin the arms of an attacker doing a lapel grab while executing a forearm strike to the throat/chin. doing this again, swithcing handsz, the adding the next move...the 270 turn into an inside block could be a transition into a standing arm bar or head strike/throw.

In the second example. the kbp analyses could be pulling back into tiger stance and parrying punch with an inside block...turning and parrying a punch from another attacker and then kicking them. Again, less than satisfactory...perhaps a better application is again from some sort of grab to the left side of my body. I could secure the offending limb with my right hand (chamber) whiel executing a hammer fist strik to the side of the head/neck. Grabbing the offending limb with my left hand I could turn and execute an arm-bar takedown as I turn 180...then knee or kick the now bent over attacker in the face.

In the last example, the kbp version is a knifehand block to a punch followed up by a spearhand strike to the abdomen, inner thigh, or groin. Better than others, but not necessarily a fight ender. For a better version, i always like using the knife strike as a wrapping up trapping of an attack with the chamber with a knife hand strike to the kneck. The spearhand motion could than be something like clothesline typ throw or projection...something akin to Kokyunage in Aikidousing the deep stance to get ones front leg behing the opponent and using your body weight to unblance them over your leg.

Hoep this makes sense and i'm REALLY not trying to plagiarize Mr. O'neil or anytone else...I'm still new at this stuff though

Peace,
Erik

 

[StuartA]

Eric,

Cut and paste this to the alternaive thread when it gets up and running properly.

Cheers,

Stuart

 

[exile]

Am I an ITF student? What makes you think that? Unlikely, given that I wrote a book with "Taegeuk" in the title, wouldn't you say? Perhaps we should ask Stuart if he's a closet KKW person, just in case he is presuming to conjecture on the Chang Hon patterns without sufficient moral authority ...

I nominally belong to the KKW/WTF-affiliated Spanish Taekwondo Federation. The Taegeuk and other KKW poomses are the ones I habitually train in.

If that satisfies your curiosity, perhaps you'd like to comment on the content of the posts rather than sidestepping. I have no desire to be antagonistic, but I must say I find the tone of your posts a little dismissive, without actually putting any counterarguments of substance on the table.

Cheers,

Simon

Well put, and I'd just add that it's not very convincing to attack a book, particularly a detailed technical analysis, that one has already declared one has no interest in reading. Some points have been raised and some analyses proposed. The point of this thread is to speak to these points and analyses, no? To challenge them, support them or amplify them. The author's biography seems a bit irrelevant, eh?

If someone were to write a book about the history of Italian art containing a number of claims about Michaelangelo's intentions in sculpting the David, just how convincing would a challenge to those claims be which was based not on the book's content, but that the author is of Polish, rather than Italian, descent?

 

[StuartA]

Okay folks... application comparisons thread is up & running.. go to: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1057661#post1057661

Should be interesting,

Stuart

 

[Dan Anderson]

Wait... I'm confused, I think I've missed something here... I thought the question was, why would you step into the attack; and what I said in my response was just sort of the standard rationale for closing the distance on the attacker to render his attack not just harmless but self-destructive. But judging by your answer, there seems to be something at issue about the rising block/knife hand on the one hand and something about Filipine MAs on the other. It wasn't clear to me that SJON was saying anything about the FMAs, but only that it's more combat-realistic to treat the movements he mentioned as strikes, rather than as literal blocks....

As I say, I'm clearly not getting something—can you walk me through the line of reasoning here? I feel as if there's some crucial assumption or claim or something that someone made in one of the earlier posts that I just flat-out missed.... :idunno:

Hi Exile,

I'll try and be more clear. The usage of a rising block or a knife hand block as a block application is ridicululous (IMO). Setting inside of the curved radius of an impact weapons strike IF YOUR TIMING IS GOOD is a staple of Filipino martila Arts, which I practice besides karate. Sorry to confuse you.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Dan Anderson]

Master Anderson, it’s an honor and pleasure sir. If I were to order a copy of your book, would you be able to autograph it for me?
I understand about the hair thing…. I don’t have much left on top now either.
Mac

Hi Dennis,

Yes.

Yours,
Dan Anderson
Note to one and all - just got back from teaching a seminar in LA and missed about 5 pages of this thread. Wow - very active. I've been in comm with Simon and am eagerly awaiting his book. Then I can comment on that as well but it sure seems like it's a good one from all the posts I've read.

 

[Dan Anderson]

Sorry.. you lost me... can you explain?

what do you mean by " although it did fit my expectations of not really being the scissors block(s) from Taegeuk Chil-Jang" and "an application of the general motions of a scissors block in a markedly different context"

I looked at a diagram of Taegeuk Chil-Jang (below), and with exception of the stances and the turn used in the ch'ang hon pattern for No.2 app, I cant see much of a difference for the blocking motion and I cant see the stance making much of a difference (esp for the first app), so Im guessing the block is perfromed in a different motion or something!! Actually, looking at the pattern diagram below, the next two moves also fit the 1st application, as if the oppoenent is turned a grab and pull on the knee would attack his spine

BTW, in the first example app, a second motion (of same block) releases the right hand and enages the attacker left arm (now behind them) in a locked position!

Stuart

Stuart,


Do you by any chance have a schematic like this for Jang Kwon?

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[StuartA]

Stuart,


Do you by any chance have a schematic like this for Jang Kwon?

Yours,
Dan Anderson

Hi Dan,

I take it that Jang Kwon is a form from some system. I found the WTF ones by simply doing a google search. I tried using your terms but came up empty Im afraid.

Sorry,

Stuart

 

[StuartA]

Hi Dennis,

and am eagerly awaiting his book. Then I can comment on that as well but it sure seems like it's a good one from all the posts I've read.

Oh oh.. <<jumps up and down again, hand waving wildly in the air>>

 

[Dan Anderson]

Hi Dan,

I take it that Jang Kwon is a form from some system. I found the WTF ones by simply doing a google search. I tried using your terms but came up empty Im afraid.

Sorry,

Stuart

Yeah, same here.

Dan

 

[SJON]

Jang Kwon is the Korean name for Chang Quan, the northern Chinese "Long Fist" form. There are a lot of different versions of it about, but it is generally considered to be descended from Taizu Long Fist. It is incorporated into the syllabus of kwans in Yoon Pyung In's lineage (YMCA Kwon Bop Bu, Chang Moo Kwan, Kang Duk Won) and - allegedly - into that of Hwang Kee's Moo Duk Kwan, although there seems to be relatively little evidence that it was ever really part of MDK training.

Robert McLain would be the man to ask about that, I suspect.

Dan, I assume you are aware that Stuart beat me to the mark by some considerable time regarding publishing a book on practical TKD pattern applications (see his website). His is concerned with the Chang Hon (ITF) set, and is highly recommendable.