The rant thread

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Aiight, new rant, new subject...

Every now and then I run into people who started training in the 80's or early 90's, but haven't trained for a few years up until now. If I didn't know what I was looking at, there's a good chance I'd say that what these people most often demonstrate and what I'm practicing nowadays are completely different arts. I honestly don't know what to do with them and their shikan ken punches with a Hunchback of Notre Dame-esque forwards lean, their constant use of pinches and hair pulls and eye pokes and throat claws, their ridiculous start-out distance or total lack of fluid footwork. And if it's not that, it's their sheer reckless brutality which they're often quick to defend with stuff like "what, you want to learn how to defend yourself for real, don't you!?"

The one good thing about these people is that they tend to follow up techniques with controlling holds after they've brought their opponent to the ground, which I think is something we're getting sloppier with nowadays. But overall, these people make you realize that nostalgia is what finally pushes you over the edge when you're sitting there on the couch with a gun barrel between your teeth weighing pro's and cons.

This from a guy whose teacher's teacher is the only gaijin who hasn't visited Japan since about '97 or '98 who is still remembered by all the Japanese shihan.

 

[Don Roley]

Aiight, new rant, new subject...

Every now and then I run into people who started training in the 80's or early 90's, but haven't trained for a few years up until now. If I didn't know what I was looking at, there's a good chance I'd say that what these people most often demonstrate and what I'm practicing nowadays are completely different arts.

I think there is a lot of that out there. I remember the 80s and how people who wanted to teach sword did not get if from a Bujinkan source, but from aikido. If they had never seen the knife work in the Bujinkan, they either came up with their own stances based on Hayes' godai, or borrowed a bit of FMA.

I think we are in the process of trying to get rid of these old habits and replace them with Bujinkan ones. I do not see coming to Japan as a means of getting new techniques, but rather to correct old habits. I can't be the only one to look at a lot of currently training members and think that they have more in common with the martial art they studied prior to Bujinkan than what the Japanese are doing.

 

[Don Roley]

I can't believe I have not ranted about this before, but here goes.

Have you ever seen (or been) someone who can't get the move right as it is shown. So they increase the amount of speed and strength they use?

I think I have been one of the guilty on a few occasions in my early stage of training. I hope I got over it. Because looking at someone doing it really makes me want to shake my head.

If you can't get a subtle move you have seen for the first time down at normal speed, what makes you think you can do it even faster?

It is not like we have not been told time and time again in various messages by Hatsumi to train slowly, get the correct movement down and then after a lot of training like that start to increase the speed until it is lighting fast. That does take time. But hell, I have seen the alternate and it ain't pretty.

I dare say this- If you are doing something that the teacher showed and are panting while he never had to, you are doing something wrong and need to slow down the training and use less muscle.

Can I be any clearer? :soapbox:

 

[Bigshadow]

I have been guilty of it, early on and have certainly seen quite a few do that.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

The older someone is, the more likely it is that he'll be going for your throat.

You know you're training with someone really special when all of a sudden you realize you've regained your balance and you're still screwed.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

The first time you throw a punch, your arm may rotate into a horizontal punch, or you might try to generate power simply by extending your triceps similar to a hammerfist, or you might punch with your thumb inside your fist, depending on your age, gender and martial arts experience.
The second time you punch, you pull your arm back to a coiled position and then let it loose, thinking that the muscle tension will let you punch more effectively.
The third time, your front foot will be rotated inwards at a 90 degree angle because you're afraid of stepping too far and losing your balance.
After that, your hips swing into position half a second before the punch is thrown, robbing you of power.
Then your arm rotates again.
Then you don't punch through your target.
Then you start out with a totally straight front arm with the fingers apart.
Then you bob up and down instead of staying on the same level.
Then your rear knee is rotated in the wrong direction, which will cause irrevocable damage if you keep it up for a few years without anyone telling you about it.
Then you rotate your front foot too far and at the wrong moment, which affects your balance.
Then you lean forwards too much.
Then you forget to have your upper body turned sideways in order to become a smaller target.
Then the elbow of your rear arm is too far out, leaving your kidneys, lungs, heart and stomach with less protection.
Then you pull your front arm back before your punching arm comes forth, exposing your head.
Then you hit with the wrong set of knuckles, which may damage your wrist.
Then you forget that a Gyokko ryu punch is supposed to come at a different angle.
Then you're not bending your knees enough to utilize sufficient power.
Then you step too far and lose your balance.
Then you clench your fist too early and telegraph your punch.
Then your elbow is not aligned with your spine when you connect with the punch.
Then you don't punch far enough to actually reach your opponent.
Then your punch is aimed at where your opponent is heading instead of where he's at, because you know what he's going to do beforehand.
Then you do all the other faults I can't think of right now but exist nonetheless.

So to all people who seem to believe that they can teach people to punch correctly, and consistently so, in just a couple of sessions - no offense, but you can go to hell.

 

[meta_aesthete]

This is one of the 10 truest things I've ever read.

Hell, I'd be happy with being able to walk and stand correctly at this point.

 

[Symbiote_X]

The first time you throw a punch, your arm may rotate into a horizontal punch, or you might try to generate power simply by extending your triceps similar to a hammerfist, or you might punch with your thumb inside your fist, depending on your age, gender and martial arts experience.
The second time you punch, you pull your arm back to a coiled position and then let it loose, thinking that the muscle tension will let you punch more effectively.
The third time, your front foot will be rotated inwards at a 90 degree angle because you're afraid of stepping too far and losing your balance.
After that, your hips swing into position half a second before the punch is thrown, robbing you of power.
Then your arm rotates again.
Then you don't punch through your target.
Then you start out with a totally straight front arm with the fingers apart.
Then you bob up and down instead of staying on the same level.
Then your rear knee is rotated in the wrong direction, which will cause irrevocable damage if you keep it up for a few years without anyone telling you about it.
Then you rotate your front foot too far and at the wrong moment, which affects your balance.
Then you lean forwards too much.
Then you forget to have your upper body turned sideways in order to become a smaller target.
Then the elbow of your rear arm is too far out, leaving your kidneys, lungs, heart and stomach with less protection.
Then you pull your front arm back before your punching arm comes forth, exposing your head.
Then you hit with the wrong set of knuckles, which may damage your wrist.
Then you forget that a Gyokko ryu punch is supposed to come at a different angle.
Then you're not bending your knees enough to utilize sufficient power.
Then you step too far and lose your balance.
Then you clench your fist too early and telegraph your punch.
Then your elbow is not aligned with your spine when you connect with the punch.
Then you don't punch far enough to actually reach your opponent.
Then your punch is aimed at where your opponent is heading instead of where he's at, because you know what he's going to do beforehand.
Then you do all the other faults I can't think of right now but exist nonetheless.

So to all people who seem to believe that they can teach people to punch correctly, and consistently so, in just a couple of sessions - no offense, but you can go to hell.

It looks like a list of all my mistakes I have done in the last 4 classes (my 4 first classes ever) trying to learn a basic Tsuki. Lucky for me Im still young and have a few decades in front of me to learn and program my body to move efficiently. hehe

 

[onikarasu]

Then your rear knee is rotated in the wrong direction, which will cause irrevocable damage if you keep it up for a few years without anyone telling you about it.
Nimravus if possible could you please explain this further. I don't think i'm doing it but you never know. Thankyou

 

[Don Roley]

Then your rear knee is rotated in the wrong direction, which will cause irrevocable damage if you keep it up for a few years without anyone telling you about it.
Nimravus if possible could you please explain this further. I don't think i'm doing it but you never know. Thankyou

Allow me to jump in.

Nimravus is correct in pointing this out. If your knees are not exactly over your toes as you extend, you will do a little bit of damage each time you do it. This goes for both the lead and the rear leg. Your knee should be pointing in the same direction as your toes. After a few years of daily training, it adds up. I noticed that with the crowd of people that came into Japan for the DKMS last year, there were a few older practicioners who could not do the sitting practice due to their use of a cane.

The Japanese shihan are all spry with no knee problems. They practice correctly. Those that have knee problems quite probably have not been practicing correctly. If they are teachers, it is a good chance that they have not been teaching correctly. I know of one guy who actually said that he did not teach the san shin because it was bad for the knees. He refused to admit that if the Japanese shihan had been doing san shin for decadesand had good knees, then the chances were that the san shin does not damage the knees if done correctly and he was probably not doing it correctly.

It is difficult to tell if your knees are in the right position when doing stuff. This is where you need a good teacher that knows what he is doing and is able to watch and correct you before you build bad habits into your taijutsu. A friend of mine said that teaching martial arts is like teaching his daughter to drive. Every time he tells someone to do something they respond "I AM!" Obviously, they are not. We just do not see that sort of thing in ourselves 99 percent of the time. To our way of seeing things, we are relaxed as we drive and our knees are perfectly positioned.

But many, many people have the wrong position based on my observation. It will cause problems if not corrected. I would urge people who come to Japan to get to a Japanese shihan like Someya with a small class and ask them to check their knee position if there is even the slightest doubt about the accuracy. It takes only a little time to do if you are doing it correct, and if you are doing it wrong now you can avoid damaging your knees over the decades.

 

[onikarasu]

Don thankyou for your excellent answer.I have heard that thing about toe knee alignment, and it is something I keep an eye on especialy the back leg.I have allways thought that the sanshin should build stronger knees not break them down.Again thankyou for your reply.

 

[jks9199]

It is difficult to tell if your knees are in the right position when doing stuff. This is where you need a good teacher that knows what he is doing and is able to watch and correct you before you build bad habits into your taijutsu. A friend of mine said that teaching martial arts is like teaching his daughter to drive. Every time he tells someone to do something they respond "I AM!" Obviously, they are not. We just do not see that sort of thing in ourselves 99 percent of the time. To our way of seeing things, we are relaxed as we drive and our knees are perfectly positioned.

This paragraph is worth repeating...

Whatever your art, you need a skilled teacher with the right "eyes" to see and correct you. Too many people, in too many arts, are teaching when they've never learned some of these pieces -- or if they learned them, they don't know how to teach them. I was incredibly fortunate in having a teacher who not only taught me these pieces in my style (and many of them are common to multiple styles!)... but taught me to see them.

But I still need his eyes on my form occasionally, too!

 

[Rubber Tanto]

The first time you throw a punch, your arm may rotate into a horizontal punch, or you might try to generate power simply by extending your triceps similar to a hammerfist, or you might punch with your thumb inside your fist, depending on your age, gender and martial arts experience.
The second time you punch, you pull your arm back to a coiled position and then let it loose, thinking that the muscle tension will let you punch more effectively.
The third time, your front foot will be rotated inwards at a 90 degree angle because you're afraid of stepping too far and losing your balance.
After that, your hips swing into position half a second before the punch is thrown, robbing you of power.
Then your arm rotates again.
Then you don't punch through your target.
Then you start out with a totally straight front arm with the fingers apart.
Then you bob up and down instead of staying on the same level.
Then your rear knee is rotated in the wrong direction, which will cause irrevocable damage if you keep it up for a few years without anyone telling you about it.
Then you rotate your front foot too far and at the wrong moment, which affects your balance.
Then you lean forwards too much.
Then you forget to have your upper body turned sideways in order to become a smaller target.
Then the elbow of your rear arm is too far out, leaving your kidneys, lungs, heart and stomach with less protection.
Then you pull your front arm back before your punching arm comes forth, exposing your head.
Then you hit with the wrong set of knuckles, which may damage your wrist.
Then you forget that a Gyokko ryu punch is supposed to come at a different angle.
Then you're not bending your knees enough to utilize sufficient power.
Then you step too far and lose your balance.
Then you clench your fist too early and telegraph your punch.
Then your elbow is not aligned with your spine when you connect with the punch.
Then you don't punch far enough to actually reach your opponent.
Then your punch is aimed at where your opponent is heading instead of where he's at, because you know what he's going to do beforehand.
Then you do all the other faults I can't think of right now but exist nonetheless.

So to all people who seem to believe that they can teach people to punch correctly, and consistently so, in just a couple of sessions - no offense, but you can go to hell.

wow...you really sucked at punching...lol
have you figured out to punch yet?
when will you start doing kata?

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

wow...you really sucked at punching...lol
have you figured out to punch yet?
when will you start doing kata?

If you don't think you did all those things or more when you began, and that you don't occasionally do some of them still, you're lying. Period.

 

[Don Roley]

So to all people who seem to believe that they can teach people to punch correctly, and consistently so, in just a couple of sessions - no offense, but you can go to hell.

You know, I heard the story that on his deathbed the great Funakoshi is said to have given a basic punch toward the ceiling and muttered, "If I could understand only this, I would die happy."

Just this week I observed a guy some of us have speculated might be in the running to be the next soke getting some fine tuning on his punching skills from one of Hatsumi's original students. If someone that good still needs some imput from their seniors from time to time, how about the rest of us?

It is only the inexperienced and the foolish that think that they have gotten the basics down. Happily, inexperience can be cured.

 

[Ronnin]

Sam, actually there is a lot of sensitive politics surrounding Hatsumi and the study of ninjutsu outside of his dojo as well as people taking a hanful of lessons from Hatsumi and then bringing their notes to the US and elsewhere to teach it themselves, so this forum is appropriate for this particular rant.

If you'd like to start a thread in General for all-around rants, feel free.

Do any of Hatsumi's top students i.e, Nagato and the like, go oversees for seminars? I don't hear of them coming around my way all that often. If they do then that may be the perfect time for Hatsumi to "keep an eye on training correctly".

 

[Don Roley]

Do any of Hatsumi's top students i.e, Nagato and the like, go oversees for seminars? I don't hear of them coming around my way all that often. If they do then that may be the perfect time for Hatsumi to "keep an eye on training correctly".

Taken from Joji Ohashi's site.

Message from Soke (1) (July/02/2000)
(On oversea seminars by Japanese Shihan & behavior on the Internet)



*From the Webmaster --
Soke, Nagato-shihan and I had a small meeting on July 2 and I was asked to spread the following message from Soke.
(This is NOT what Soke wrote by himself. We had a talk and I compiled what (I think) Soke had told me to spread. I believe I never miss his points here, but I can't guarantee that my memory is perfect. Additionally, my English is far from perfect. So, please try not to read it literally but to catch his feeling as we are often told at his classes.)

Here we go.


It seems that many overseas training participants would like Japanese Shihan to conduct seminars at their places.
Yet, if these Japanese Shihan were to conduct oversea seminars, I see the potential for numerous problems. For example, if a participant were to be injured, it's possible the conductor could be sued for damages and then his life could be severely affected. Even if they were to contract beforehand not to sue for damages, such a contract might not act as expected.
Furthermore, if the injured party were a member of the Armed Forces etc., it's possible a political problem might arise.
Due mainly to the reason stated above, I can not permit Japanese Shihan to go overseas and conduct seminars. Therefore, I'd like everyone not to ask Japanese Shihan to conduct oversea seminars.
I know that some people still want to do so in spite of my decision. Yet, as the level of their skill has advanced recently in various countries, I feel it's best if you yourselves conduct these seminars. There's no reason to go all the way to asking Japanese Shihan to conduct these seminars. Be confident and persevere.

 

[Seattletcj]

The Japanese shihan are all spry with no knee problems. They practice correctly. Those that have knee problems quite probably have not been practicing correctly. If they are teachers, it is a good chance that they have not been teaching correctly. I know of one guy who actually said that he did not teach the san shin because it was bad for the knees. He refused to admit that if the Japanese shihan had been doing san shin for decadesand had good knees, then the chances were that the san shin does not damage the knees if done correctly and he was probably not doing it correctly.

LOL
It has nothing to do with body size, weight, genetics, or the fact that they have been sitting on their knees everyday since they were young kids.

Naaaah

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

LOL
It has nothing to do with body size, weight,

If Don is referring to whom I think he is, it's pretty much only about those two.

 

[Don Roley]

LOL
It has nothing to do with body size, weight, genetics, or the fact that they have been sitting on their knees everyday since they were young kids.

Naaaah

Everything except body weight really is not a factor. Sitting on the knees might, but there are no differences in the number of people with knee problems between Japanese and Americans as far as I know. And some of the guys that try to press for a Japanese- uber alles type of thing in some of the Japanese media would have mentioned it if there had been some evidence to think that seiza helps improve the knees.

So yeah, Japanese guys that have done san shin for decades all have good knees. If you do san shin and have bad knees, it is not the fault of the san shin but more likely the way you mistakenly practiced it. Or maybe you need to lose some weight or give up on something from another part of your life causing the problems.