The rant thread

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Hmm. I can see this point but I do think now we are moving out of Budo in general and more into teaching and pedagogy. I teach for a living, online college Professor, and have formal training in the area. I also do curriculum development. Just to provide background.

That's all fine and dandy, but I believe that these two fields of study don't have the same type of commitment.

The first is Stopjutsu which for me needs to be stopped up front. The logic here is that it is a "fatal" or near so flaw from a combative standpoint.

So is "allowing" anyone to perform a killing or maiming technique on oneself, if you go to extremes.

To be a bit blunt, I don't consider that to be much of a threat unless the people involved are really stupid. But then again, if they're that stupid, they're also probably too stupid to understand the usefulness of kata practice, and as such probably won't spend much time in the Bujinkan anyway.

I have a friend in the Buj who's worked for several years as a bouncer, and has also done guard service in the subway. He has basically the same problem as I have in that he can't always make decisions on how to do things in practice, and usually has to see things demonstrated more than once in order to replicate them.
But it's easy to be fooled by that if you haven't seen him in action; not only does he perform well under pressure testing such as grappling or the aforementioned "Nakadai sparring", I've seen him handle himself several times in real life against people under influence (though I don't think he's aware of the fact that I was present during those times), and he moves with total confidence in himself, without hesitation.

When I train with someone I've never met before I often purposefully stop at times in the middle of a technique to see if he'll use that opportunity to counterattack "off rhythm". If he doesn't, I see that as a good sign, in that he like me is there to train and learn and not to be a jerk to people. It signifies that he too probably appreciates a moment or two to re-think his movement strategy instead of rushing everything.

After a couple of years of observing Bujinkan discussions online, what often strikes me is that people often seem to make the assumption that things can be learned much quicker than what has been my experience. I however tend to keep one thought in my mind as often as possible - that the reason I can do this so easily (or the opposite) may very well be because I have missed or misunderstood something, or that the person teaching me may have done so.

 

[Alan Witty]

Hi Alan,

Are you a godan under Hatsumi?

Just curious,

Carol

Hi:

Yes. I have been training in the Bujinkan since 1990. My teachers are Dale Seago and Mike Simien. Prior I studied Shotokan, Hapkido and some Kung Fu.

I really had no desire to teach and prefer to train. When I moved here to Ft. Collins I had a friend in Denver I trained with, one of Bill Atkins students. Due to work the drive became a bit and so I started teaching, with Dale and Mike's permission, to further my own training.

We are a small group so that makes it fun and finances permitting I go to Japan once a year and also to local seminars or bring in others like Mike and Dale.

 

[Alan Witty]

That's all fine and dandy, but I believe that these two fields of study don't have the same type of commitment.



So is "allowing" anyone to perform a killing or maiming technique on oneself, if you go to extremes.

To be a bit blunt, I don't consider that to be much of a threat unless the people involved are really stupid. But then again, if they're that stupid, they're also probably too stupid to understand the usefulness of kata practice, and as such probably won't spend much time in the Bujinkan anyway.

On the first point there are sound foundations in the concepts of instruction and teaching that cross many boundaries. It is as much a science as it is an art. Ask my students who have families and jobs and a grueling pace in the program I teach in about commitment. They may disagree. In any case not a point worth debating.

On the second point I think that many people come to martial arts with a variety of skills and motivations. Not all are fighters by nature. That can be learned as well. We ALL have bad habits. This is one I choose to, and my teachers chose, to not get very far.

Not really a right or wrong thing merely an approach.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Personally, I don't believe academic studies are directly comparable to physical, energy-based studies. There are way too many things that factor in the latter, a lot of them directly related to the motivation of the people performing them. Most of the people you describe (middle-aged people with jobs and families) aren't really interested in thoroughly learning Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, what they want to do is move around.

 

[Alan Witty]

Hi:

First, the point made was that those people are indeed commited to their studies, i.e. academic. The point was not that they were studying Budo.

Second, I know many Budoka who are middle-aged, have families and are serious students of the art.

Finally, on teaching and learning there are basic and standard models on how humans learn. Repitition, concept based, example based, etc that apply to both fields. IMHO.

Anyway this is leading away from Don's point and I am sure if others are interested we can port to a separate thread.

Happy Holidays

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Second, I know many Budoka who are middle-aged, have families and are serious students of the art.

I do too, although I can only think of one who began in that age.

 

[Don Roley]

On another rant.....

Recently we have seen youtube just explode. A year ago, no one knew who they were. Now everyone is posting things on it.

And some of those are Budo taijutsu clips.

If someone links to a clip that is already up, I have no problem with that. If someone puts up a clip on line of themselves, I have no problem with that. Heck, if someone puts up a clip of a public demonstration, I have no problem with that.

But am I the only one here that sees people putting up clips of other people teaching without their permission and thinks it is just plain wrong?

If I see a tape of me doing a demo, then I know that I was expecting people to see it. But when you are in a class, there may be things that you do not want shown to the entire world. It just seems common sense that if you have not gotten the ok from the person, you don't put clips of them up on the internet.

But then again, some people don't have common sense and some people just don't care about doing the honorable thing.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Don with the explosion of youtube I think it is very difficult to allow anyone to tape your classes or seminars unless they are a personal friend and there is an agreement in place. Otherwise those non professional images will find themselves onto the internet in one way shape or form.

Unfortunately I think you will see less and less Japanese Shihan allowing you to tape based on what a few other's have done with placing a tape on youtube. I have private footage of certain well know people that I would love to share to the world but I would never place it on the internet due to them asking me not to.

Another question would be is sharing something on the internet that someone else posted wrong? (youtube, etc) This I do not know the question to. There is not a completely black and white answer. When
I have seen something that should not be on an intenet video site I have
tried to contact the copyright holder or one of there people to let them know. This has helped take down several videos that had been copyright infringed upon. However this is a daunting task as there are to many of these to keep up with.

 

[Don Roley]

Unfortunately I think you will see less and less Japanese Shihan allowing you to tape based on what a few other's have done with placing a tape on youtube.

Yes, I have seen that over the last year. Though the main problem was not with youtube itself.

Another question would be is sharing something on the internet that someone else posted wrong? (youtube, etc)

I am of the opinion that only those that put it up in the first place are guilty. If only those that have no morals view these things, then those that refrain from dishonorable acts will not learn as much. It is not a case of people taking money from someone else when they view these clips. So viewing, sharing, etc is not really bad IMO. After all, does a person linking to a clip really know if it is up there without permision? But the person that puts it up knows and does it anyway.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Yes, I have seen that over the last year. Though the main problem was not with youtube itself.



I am of the opinion that only those that put it up in the first place are guilty. If only those that have no morals view these things, then those that refrain from dishonorable acts will not learn as much. It is not a case of people taking money from someone else when they view these clips. So viewing, sharing, etc is not really bad IMO. After all, does a person linking to a clip really know if it is up there without permision? But the person that puts it up knows and does it anyway.

Don I think you have a good approach in dealing with this subject.
I hope that the Japanese Shihan that have allowed trusted students to video tape will still allow it. Unfortunately when someone else abuses it then probably everyone will pay.

 

[jks9199]

On another rant.....

But am I the only one here that sees people putting up clips of other people teaching without their permission and thinks it is just plain wrong?

If I see a tape of me doing a demo, then I know that I was expecting people to see it. But when you are in a class, there may be things that you do not want shown to the entire world. It just seems common sense that if you have not gotten the ok from the person, you don't put clips of them up on the internet.

But then again, some people don't have common sense and some people just don't care about doing the honorable thing.

I agree. In fact, I'm NOT a fan (and never have been!) of video taping classes or seminars. I've had someone dictate where I sat so that they could film for someone who couldn't be bothered to attend the class themselves. (I think that sentence kind of gives a clue as to my feelings...) It's too easy for people to worry so much about the video that they miss the entire lesson -- and video DOES NOT capture some things well at all.

Don with the explosion of youtube I think it is very difficult to allow anyone to tape your classes or seminars unless they are a personal friend and there is an agreement in place. Otherwise those non professional images will find themselves onto the internet in one way shape or form.

My teacher never permits videotapes during his classes. I follow his practice. See my comments above... We do, however, positively encourage written notetaking!

Another question would be is sharing something on the internet that someone else posted wrong? (youtube, etc) This I do not know the question to. There is not a completely black and white answer. When
I have seen something that should not be on an intenet video site I have
tried to contact the copyright holder or one of there people to let them know. This has helped take down several videos that had been copyright infringed upon. However this is a daunting task as there are to many of these to keep up with.

I am of the opinion that only those that put it up in the first place are guilty. If only those that have no morals view these things, then those that refrain from dishonorable acts will not learn as much. It is not a case of people taking money from someone else when they view these clips. So viewing, sharing, etc is not really bad IMO. After all, does a person linking to a clip really know if it is up there without permision? But the person that puts it up knows and does it anyway.

Sharing privately between people is a personal matter (with some exceptions when it gets into media piracy). But posting something without the permission of both the owner and the subject is just plain wrong. There are several reasons that I wouldn't want to look in YouTube and see my face. Among them is the simple fact that it could cause professional complications or be used against me in court. (There is already a lengthy thread that hits on those issues under the Toshindo/SKH sub-forum here.) And I don't want to turn around, and see someone claiming to do a form the same way I do, unless I taught it to them. I might do something weird for my own purposes that I'll not teach them without explaining... and I had to sweat and toil to learn that. You can do the same, the same ways I did.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

A few random ruminations on sparring...

I believe that children have the right to be children for as long as they can. I also believe that everyone is entitled to those few first months of taijutsu training where you walk around feeling totally invincible. The crucial part, IMO, is how you're brought out of that phase.

For most people, my guess would be that this happens through training with a new person, either someone from a different dojo or a complete newbie who hasn't yet acquired his Bujinkan "mannerisms". Perhaps he moves that foot a full step back and regains his balance just as you're trying to do that cool sweep. Perhaps he rotates inwards to regain his balance just while you think you've got a perfect omote opportunity (whether you start wrestling with him or ask your instructor what's gone wrong tells something about you as a person, I'll leave it at that). And that's probably natural. Sometimes, however, it happens through the implementation of sparring at a really inopportune moment.

He's slashing at you with that training knife and you don't know why you're suddenly unable to catch his arm. He's throwing jabs and hooks at you and you're wondering why you're so unused at protecting your head. Or, you're on the ground grappling and your habit of holding your breath during techniques brings you to the point of exhaustion extremely quickly.

The most problematic part of this is that a lot of the time when this happens, the beginners are never told WHY it is happening, or at the most getting to hear that "they've got something to think about". At that point, most people aren't likely to look in the mirror - where they should be looking - instead, they're more likely to think that they've been taught incorrectly, or that there is something fundamentally wrong with the system.
These are the very situations that cause people to walk out of the dojo angered and seek out the closest MMA or kickboxing gym available. Some of these people I've met didn't seem like they had a clue about why they were practicing kata in the dojo - that's a kind of lump-it-all-together kind of thinking that honestly scares me. My personal opinion is that if your instructor can't tell you anything about why you're unsuccessful, you shouldn't be training with him.

Naturally, some people don't have the means or the will to seek out other instructors who can tell them why things go south when the level of speed and intent is highered. That's when you have all the self-righteous hybrid practitioners entering into the equation, who've looked all over to fill out the gaps they've perceived in Bujinkan training (everywhere except to other Bujinkan instructors), whose students enroll expecting to be taught Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu but are in actuality getting something else.
Now you can try to circumvent the issue all you want by talking about "testable" training and "proven" competition results and whatever. That does not change the fact that what most people who adapt "pressure testing" at regular intervals in training are doing is not Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. Period.* If you with all your Western sass went into the Bujinkan expecting to learn to fight first and foremost, the fault lies with YOU and no one else. The purpose of training in the Bujinkan is to properly learn Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, and most who would spar all-out early on have not learned the stuff well enough to be able to call what they're doing Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu.
You don't care about any so-called "bad habits"? Fine. But in that case, there are better places for you to be than in the Bujinkan. I've met several people within the Bujinkan who would probably be fearsome fighters even without taijutsu training. But something that's extremely often overlooked is the fact that what these people are capable of is simply not workable for someone of smaller size and strength.

Where I train, sparring does occur from time to time, and one of our relative beginners even has a habit of doing a grappling match with our head instructor after every session. However, we're NOT the type of people who consider sparring a crucial part of finding out "what works", and - at least with said head instructor - I can't recall a sparring session that wasn't later touched upon, in that several pointers were given as to what parts of our taijutsu goes out the window.

I'll return to this issue later after I've had a nap and dealt with some other stuff.





* I'm not simply talking about physical techniques.

 

[Don Roley]

The most problematic part of this is that a lot of the time when this happens, the beginners are never told WHY it is happening, or at the most getting to hear that "they've got something to think about". At that point, most people aren't likely to look in the mirror - where they should be looking - instead, they're more likely to think that they've been taught incorrectly, or that there is something fundamentally wrong with the system.

I know people that are in the system that do not have these problems. Little guys with names that are difficult to pronounce. So it is not the system, at least not at the top. Their advice for this type of situation is to go over the basics. The problem is, there are very very few people IMO that have basics up to their levels. The excuses you say are given are the perfect ones to cover over a lack of these basics.

After all, why admit you don't have the basics enough to teach others and ruin their image of you as a great teacher when you can pull off a semi-zen moment by saying they have something to think about? :uhyeah:

Good rant.

 

[Rubber Tanto]

The most problematic part of this is that a lot of the time when this happens, the beginners are never told WHY it is happening, or at the most getting to hear that "they've got something to think about". At that point, most people aren't likely to look in the mirror - where they should be looking - instead, they're more likely to think that they've been taught incorrectly, or that there is something fundamentally wrong with the system.
These are the very situations that cause people to walk out of the dojo angered and seek out the closest MMA or kickboxing gym available. Some of these people I've met didn't seem like they had a clue about why they were practicing kata in the dojo - that's a kind of lump-it-all-together kind of thinking that honestly scares me. My personal opinion is that if your instructor can't tell you anything about why you're unsuccessful, you shouldn't be training with him.

I could not agree more.
Kata teaches us very much, granted, but it can also make us feel bullet proof when we think we have a technique down pat. How many times has a sensei said "now we will be working on (technique X) and you either see certain people's face light up or hear a "yesss" or as someone said once "this is my favourite"
Sure this is great. But once that same person tries that move for the first time in pressure testing (people always try their favourite move first in pressure testing I've found) and they quickly learn to things...1) that trying to get something on under resistance suddenly doesn't quite work the same, and 2) that you can't just predetermine what you are going to do in a fight.

Where I train, sparring does occur from time to time, and one of our relative beginners even has a habit of doing a grappling match with our head instructor after every session. However, we're NOT the type of people who consider sparring a crucial part of finding out "what works", and - at least with said head instructor - I can't recall a sparring session that wasn't later touched upon, in that several pointers were given as to what parts of our taijutsu goes out the window.

at our dojo we have 1 class every week that just focusses on sparring and pressure testing. AFter a rotation of probably 3 x 3 min rounds with different opponents, we will all sit on the floor and talk about what went wrong, what went right and how to fix anything broke. Sometimes just letting astudent talk about his sparring experience at his own pace gives him a moment of self-reflection to actually answer some of his own dillemas.

~Nick





* I'm not simply talking about physical techniques.[/quote]

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

that you can't just predetermine what you are going to do in a fight.

What we're probably going to disagree on is that frequent pressure testing bears exactly the same problem with it, which is what I touched upon earlier. I know of several people who at first appear to be genuinely interested in taijutsu as an art, but as soon as it's time to do some randori they don't even try to use any of that "weird stuff" and their kickboxing is employed instead.

at our dojo we have 1 class every week that just focusses on sparring and pressure testing. AFter a rotation of probably 3 x 3 min rounds with different opponents, we will all sit on the floor and talk about what went wrong, what went right and how to fix anything broke. Sometimes just letting astudent talk about his sparring experience at his own pace gives him a moment of self-reflection to actually answer some of his own dillemas.

However, we're NOT the type of people who consider sparring a crucial part of finding out "what works",

If sparring is a main point in training, being told what's going wrong doesn't make things a whole lot better. Again - I do not have confidence in people learning stuff that quickly. It's the same when people bring up Takamatsu and his fights as examples of sparring being beneficial. Anyone who says so is also inferring that he/she has the same grasp of ryuha kata and basics as Takamatsu had when he went off to try himself. BS. Bottom line - most people who would spar early on can't even perform kata correctly on a cooperative partner. Fix that first, and when your arms aren't vibrating anymore, your legs aren't straight and he can't regain his balance, then we can talk about some scrapping.

 

[Rubber Tanto]

Though you make it sound as if all we do is sparring. Our dojo has classes every night and some nights double classes. every second monday is sparring for 5th kyu and up. avery first is for 3rd to 5th kyu.

I have actually found my sparring time very helpful to my kata training. when I finally start to "see" under pressure, I see a whole lot clearer when working on the kata.

What we're probably going to disagree on is that frequent pressure testing bears exactly the same problem with it, which is what I touched upon earlier. I know of several people who at first appear to be genuinely interested in taijutsu as an art, but as soon as it's time to do some randori they don't even try to use any of that "weird stuff" and their kickboxing is employed instead.

No, that is a training fault in that who ever trains them lets the training go beyond theur capabilities. If I am pressure testing my opponent and they have to either a) stop using their taijutsu or b) adopted some hybrid kickboxing stance or c) just getting smothered, then I have the logic to tone it down to a speed and force that they can once again deal with using the principles and techniques of our art.

If sparring is a main point in training, being told what's going wrong doesn't make things a whole lot better.

Interesting comment. How so?
I'll provide an example. "Tony you kept getting hit in the head because you werern't taking angles and you subconciously lean forward a lot"
This information is not helpful because...

 

[Kichigai-no-Okami]

Damn. Reading this thread makes me want to put my white belt back on, shave my head, and sweep out my Shidoshi's home. Gotta say that i wholehartedly concure with some of what Don had to say about going back to basics. Sloppy basics(kihon an sanchin no kata, etc.) make for some (blank)'ed-up advanced technique and nagare. I constantly have to review basics, because even though ive been doing this (Ninpo) awhile, i have other "physical situations" i deal with, so learning to adapt kata to me personally is a full time job in itself. Basics are the building block in which i need to do this, even though sometimes it feels like i'm in "Ninpo for Dummies". :mst:

B-

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Though you make it sound as if all we do is sparring. Our dojo has classes every night and some nights double classes. every second monday is sparring for 5th kyu and up. avery first is for 3rd to 5th kyu.

If your purpose of sparring is to find out "what works", and that is a main part of your training, then yes, I have a problem with that.

I have actually found my sparring time very helpful to my kata training. when I finally start to "see" under pressure, I see a whole lot clearer when working on the kata.

Great, you're different from all the jerks I've met whom it didn't do any good.

No, that is a training fault in that who ever trains them lets the training go beyond theur capabilities. If I am pressure testing my opponent and they have to either a) stop using their taijutsu or b) adopted some hybrid kickboxing stance or c) just getting smothered, then I have the logic to tone it down to a speed and force that they can once again deal with using the principles and techniques of our art.

See above.

Interesting comment. How so?
I'll provide an example. "Tony you kept getting hit in the head because you werern't taking angles and you subconciously lean forward a lot"
This information is not helpful because...

Because of the simple fact that one of the basic premises for learning Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is to first learn to do stuff slowly and correctly within a fixed setting. I do not believe for one second that people will end up with better taijutsu if they're subjected to pressure from the moment they start out.

 

[Seattletcj]

Because of the simple fact that one of the basic premises for learning Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is to first learn to do stuff slowly and correctly within a fixed setting. I do not believe for one second that people will end up with better taijutsu if they're subjected to pressure from the moment they start out.

I dont think RT, or anyone for that matter is advocating sparring on day one.
Many MMA gyms I know of for instance only allow sparring after 6 months. Some after 3 months etc.
As for pressure testing and alive drilling, its good to get a real sense of what to expect as far as timing and resistance fairly early, in order to train
accordingly. But, basics are more important in these early stages done slowly and correctly, I agree.

 

[Rubber Tanto]

If your purpose of sparring is to find out "what works", and that is a main part of your training, then yes, I have a problem with that.

Nope. I agree. The purpose of sparring is not to find out what works. But to find out how to work what you know when the person your training with is no longer static.

Because of the simple fact that one of the basic premises for learning Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is to first learn to do stuff slowly and correctly within a fixed setting. I do not believe for one second that people will end up with better taijutsu if they're subjected to pressure from the moment they start out.

And I agree 100%

I dont think RT, or anyone for that matter is advocating sparring on day one.
Many MMA gyms I know of for instance only allow sparring after 6 months. Some after 3 months etc.
As for pressure testing and alive drilling, its good to get a real sense of what to expect as far as timing and resistance fairly early, in order to train
accordingly. But, basics are more important in these early stages done slowly and correctly, I agree.

Exactly.