OK, who do I trust???

[allenjp]

Who do you guys consider a reliable author on ninjutsu? Hatsumi alone? the ancient japanese texts? Hatsumi and some of his students? Tanemura?

It's all so confusing. I went to B & N yesterday to try to find good books on the subject, and most of the books I found were by Ashida Kim and Haha Lung (the irony of the name "haha" is just comical), and had titles like "Ninja mind control", etc...and I just had to laugh.

But what about Stephen Hayes? Is he considered a reliable author? He was supposed to have been hatsumi's first American student right? Or is that just BS too? His books had a lot of that "mystical ninja" stuff too.

Help!!!

 

[Bob Hubbard]

My opinion is, Hayes is fairly reliable as a former leading student of Hatsumi. Kim and Lung's connection to ninjutsu is shakey at best. You'll find Hayes has his detractors since going out on his own with his own system. I do recall seeing at least 1 book by Dr. Hatsumi at Borders or B&N recently though.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

But what about Stephen Hayes? Is he considered a reliable author?

No.

He was supposed to have been hatsumi's first American student right?

No.

 

[allenjp]

No.



No.

Thank you! I was about to go insane when I read some of the things he wrote.

Just hatsumi then? Turnbull maybe?

 

[rutherford]

Thank you! I was about to go insane when I read some of the things he wrote.

Just hatsumi then? Turnbull maybe?

As an FYI, there is some controversy around Ninjutsu: History and Tradition. The basic gist of it is that it was written by Hayes and my have some inaccuracies.

When an English language version of Kacem Zoughari's book is released, I look forward to reading it.

 

[allenjp]

As an FYI, there is some controversy around Ninjutsu: History and Tradition. The basic gist of it is that it was written by Hayes and my have some inaccuracies.

When an English language version of Kacem Zoughari's book is released, I look forward to reading it.

Aha! Come to think of it, I believe that was the book I was looking at. Why would Hatsumi allow his name to be put on something that Hayes wrote? It didn't say Hayes anywhere on it...

BTW, what in what language is Zoughari's book written? (maybe I can read it now)

 

[allenjp]

Correction...the book I was looking at was named "The way of the NINJA, secret techniques" by Hatsumi. Guess I'm back to square one...

 

[punisher73]

I guess it all comes down to what are you looking for exactly in the books. Is it viable, workable information? If so than some of the controversial authors can fit that bill. If what you want is the authentic practices and history than it might be better to stick with Hatsumi.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I think it is safe to say that if you stick with Hatsumi Sensei's books, DVD's, video's, etc. that you will be happy.

 

[kwaichang]

SKH was the FIRST AMERICAN student of Hatsumi Sensei. The story behind that is one of legend among his students.

SKH was trained, given rank and sanction by Hatsumi Sensei; his knowledge and teachings are fact based. His new training reflects western acceptance of teaching methods and has been developed with that in mind, in addition to using effective techniques for modern day living while still incorporating ancient weapons skills.

I've trained with Stephen and been to Japan to train with Hatsumi Sensei. Tanemura Sensei was still with him at that time. Tanemura Sensei is a very proficient technician and knows the Ryu's history and techniques as well as anyone can.

Hatsumi Sensei did do a few books later on, after the "ninja craze" started growing, and they are excellent.

SKH has a series of books; whether you get them off line at his site or from Amazon, they are excellent in history, technique and yes give you some of the mystical background of the ninja as well.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

SKH was the FIRST AMERICAN student of Hatsumi Sensei.

Nope.

SKH has a series of books; whether you get them off line at his site or from Amazon, they are excellent in history, technique and yes give you some of the mystical background of the ninja as well.

OK - one last chance to offer proof before I pass you off as a troll.

 

[rjhb]

Originally Posted by kwaichang View Post
SKH was the FIRST AMERICAN student of Hatsumi Sensei.

Nope.

Who was then?

 

[Dale Seago]

SKH was the FIRST AMERICAN student of Hatsumi Sensei. The story behind that is one of legend among his students.

Oops, I hit "thanks" instead of "quote".

Anyway, "legend" is certainly an appropriate description since an American named Terry Dobson (well-known later as an aikido instructor) was training with Hatsumi sensei before Hayes. In fact, it was Dobson who introduced an Israeli named Doron Navon to Sensei and got him involved in the training. . .which also occurred before Hayes began.

 

[jks9199]

Oops, I hit "thanks" instead of "quote".

Anyway, "legend" is certainly an appropriate description since an American named Terry Dobson (well-known later as an aikido instructor) was training with Hatsumi sensei before Hayes. In fact, it was Dobson who introduced an Israeli named Doron Navon to Sensei and got him involved in the training. . .which also occurred before Hayes began.

So... was Hayes the first to be awarded a teaching license, train extensively, or something else that might have merely been misrepresented? Was the time frame close enough for relatively innocent confusion? Or did Hayes just promote himself very well?

 

[Dale Seago]

In the questions lie the answer.

 

[Imua Kuntao]

First, you shouldn't laugh at any of it. People will do automatically the same things under certain circumstances, as an example,a person gets arrested, they will say things to the arresting officer or transporting officer to try to get himself of of trouble. I have seen people try to control others thru the work place, " I am going to get her to go out with me", and then they proceed to try and make that happen, or like micro management. All the things ninja did or know had/have their place/time to be used. It all depends on the job/assignment at hand, watching and predicting the weather for assaults, counting enemy soldiers..... and of course the acting. And no, if you are a ninja, you should not trust anyone. As far as authority, depends on how serious you are about your trainning and what you will do with your knowledge. There are real ninja and they practice under everybody's noses.

 

[kwaichang]

So... was Hayes the first to be awarded a teaching license, train extensively, or something else that might have merely been misrepresented?

No misrepresentation, if there was a small lap over in time, no one at the time was aware of it and my information doesn't confirm that part. As for D. Navon, he was training with Hatsumi and I met him at Hatsumi Sensei's personal training village.
Hatsumi promoted Stephen and the events were witnessed and in most cases photographed. Hatsumi encouraged Stephen to "take this art back to the world" and also advised him when a personal art was being developed *(and sanctioned by H.).

 

[kwaichang]

A little digging to help clarify some facts.

Terry Dobson was uchi-deshi to Ueshiba until his marriage in 1964.
In 1970 Dobson returned to the U.S. In 1979 he moved to San Francisco.

Stephen K. Hayes was the original American uchi-deshi disciple of ninja grandmaster Masaaki Hatsumi in the 1970s, having "found" the ninja master in June of '75.

Hatsumi Sensei's own words at that meeting: "Americans have visited our training hall, but we have never taught them the true techinques of our system. We have never let an Amercian stay and study with us."
...The Ninja and Their Secret Fighting Art, Pub by Charles Tuttle Co., Japan, 1981 author SKH

 

[Kreth]

Hatsumi Sensei's own words at that meeting: "Americans have visited our training hall, but we have never taught them the true techinques of our system. We have never let an Amercian stay and study with us."
...The Ninja and Their Secret Fighting Art, Pub by Charles Tuttle Co., Japan, 1981 author SKH

I think that says it all really (emphasis mine)...

 

[Dale Seago]

A little digging to help clarify some facts.

. . .Stephen K. Hayes was the original American uchi-deshi disciple of ninja grandmaster Masaaki Hatsumi in the 1970s, having "found" the ninja master in June of '75.

Um. . .Do you happen to know what the term uchi-deshi means? I don't think even any of Hatsumi sensei's Japanese students ever fit into that category.