The Reality of Weapons

[Don Roley]

My teacher, Hiroshi Nagase, always stresses that this art was built around the reality of weapons. We use them, we train to go against them and even though we do unarmed stuff most of the time, there is always a connection with weapons.

I have been thinking of something for a long time and kind of want to throw it out here. The following is a work by Darren Laur on the knife. http://members.shaw.ca/tmanifold/edged_weapon.htm Most shocking is the following section.

"I'm a big believer in, "don't tell me, show me" so in early 1992 I conducted an empirical video research study. I had 85 police officers participate in a scenario based training session where unknown to them they would be attacked with a knife. The attacker, who was dressed in a combative suit, was told that during mid way of the contact, they were to pull a knife that they had been concealing, flash it directly at the officer saying "I'm going to kill you pig" and then engage the officer physically. The results were remarkable:
- 3/85 saw the knife prior to contact
- 10/85 realized that they were being stabbed repeatedly during the scenario
- 72/85 did not realize that they were being assaulted with a knife until the scenario was over, and the officers were advised to look at their uniforms to see the simulated thrusts and slices left behind by the chalked training knives."

So, despite the fact that someone made an effort to flash the knife during the scenario, only 3 out of 85 could tell that the guy had one before it was used on them.

So I take this to mean that there really is no "Unarmed" techniques in self defense. You can't have something you would do if the guy has a knife and something else that you would do if he did not have one. Because you probably will not be able to tell if he has one or not.

And this is not even taking into account the idea that the guy may not show you the knife before he uses it on you. Kelly McMann, writing as Jim Grover, lists the following techniques being taught in today's prisons that all revolve around the idea of hiding the knife before sticking it in the other guy; The Smash and Slash, The Jailyard, The Jackknife and the Slap and Tap. In fact, the only technique he mentions that does not hide the knife is called Bulldogging. You can read about them on page 163-165 of his book, "Street Smarts, Firearms and Personal Security."

These are the slang terms given to these techniques in prison. So they are known and practiced by criminals. If you are talking about self defense you can't ignore the reality that the most likely to try to kill you with a knife are training so that they make you think they don't have a knife.

So I think we can throw the idea that you can go into a battle in either a 'unarmed' or 'armed' mindset. The law and morality will not let you treat a guy who throws punches at you with the same amount of force that you would if you knew he had a knife. But you can't treat him as if he were just going to try to punch you. You have to assume that he may have a weapon and will pull it at some point- if it is not already hidden in his hand.

So far, a lot of folks may be asking what is the point. All of this may be something you have heard already. But my point is that a lot of artists seem to look at combat like it was a tennis match. You throw something, then maybe the other guys throws something.

Well, when I look at Hatsumi I see pool. To be more exact, I see Hatsumi as a pool shark. Once he has the shot, the other guy never gets a chance to make another. He clears the table and the other guy is just along for the ride. If they guy has a knife, he never gets to use the thing. He can't touch Hatsumi with anything. Hatsumi controls his entire body so that a hand of the other guy can't reach him. For unarmed stuff, a guy who can scratch you, and not much else, is not a credible threat. But if the guy has hidden a knife in his hand, then that scratch can kill. Hatsumi does not let him get that hand anywhere near him.

But I see a lot of Bujinkan folks that seem to be doing taijutsu as if it were a tennis match. Instead of luring in a committed attack and then taking control of the guy, it is a case of give and take. And you don't want to do that with a knife. In some cases I see Bujinkan members allow touches to them that can't do much damage as long as it is merely an unarmed situation. But as I said, you can't assume that you will know that it is an unarmed situation.

So I think more Bujinkan members should take a look at what Hatsumi does and try to watch for what I am talking about. If you look for it, it will become clear. Hatsumi is playing pool, not tennis. A guy had a knife would never be able to use it on him because he always moves in such way that he would be safe from it.

People might want to read more about knife fighting realities and how much they rely on surprise and deception by reading Marc MacYoung's web site at www.nononsenseselfdefense.com. He was also the guy who first drew contrasts with fighting and the way a pool shark works.

But once you read it, and take a good, long look at Hatsumi, I really hope that I see a lot less tennis going on in the dojo.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

Great post, Don!

I heard the same sort of information on the Krav Maga "On the Edge" training video. It REALLY, REALLY opened my eyes. OTOH, my experience being robbed at knifepoint many years ago was that it was an ambush as well, and NO, I did not see the knife until he had jumped over the counter while I was distracted, grabbed my collar with one hand and stuck a small blade of some sort (didn't really see what) into my throat.

My feeling as well is that most strictly MMA and sport martial artists would have little, if any chance against a knife ambush. Only those who were already streetwise would have a chance. This type of scenerio MUST be SPECIFICALLY drilled and trained.

 

[Don Roley]

Only those who were already streetwise would have a chance. This type of scenerio MUST be SPECIFICALLY drilled and trained.

Damn, that reminds me that I forgot to mention my experiences with Bill the Knife.

There is a guy who lives in Japan who I have given that knick name. Obviously because he is so damn good with a knife. He has a drone for a Spyderco Delica just like me. Unlike me, he carries it on him somewhere while training. He does not fool with guys he has just met. But if you have some sort of trust with him he may pull the thing out as you try to do a technique and just run it across part of you.

That kind of wakes you up to the idea of keeping your attention on possible weapons. And Hatsumi has us do techniques where we have a weapon hidden when we do them. So I should not be talking about something outside of most people's experiences.

Keep a rubber knife on you while being the uke sometimes and have the other guy do the same with you. But do it only with trustworthy folks that are serious about training. There is an entire thread here about how some things like this get into people throwing crappy techniques and such because they want to get into the counter attack and the battling of egos on the mat.

 

[MRE]

Thanks for the info. I do not study taijutsu, but I am sure this mindset will help me in my self defense training as well.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

My teacher, Hiroshi Nagase, always stresses that this art was built around the reality of weapons. We use them, we train to go against them and even though we do unarmed stuff most of the time, there is always a connection with weapons.

I have been thinking of something for a long time and kind of want to throw it out here. The following is a work by Darren Laur on the knife. http://members.shaw.ca/tmanifold/edged_weapon.htm Most shocking is the following section.



So, despite the fact that someone made an effort to flash the knife during the scenario, only 3 out of 85 could tell that the guy had one before it was used on them.

So I take this to mean that there really is no "Unarmed" techniques in self defense. You can't have something you would do if the guy has a knife and something else that you would do if he did not have one. Because you probably will not be able to tell if he has one or not.

And this is not even taking into account the idea that the guy may not show you the knife before he uses it on you. Kelly McMann, writing as Jim Grover, lists the following techniques being taught in today's prisons that all revolve around the idea of hiding the knife before sticking it in the other guy; The Smash and Slash, The Jailyard, The Jackknife and the Slap and Tap. In fact, the only technique he mentions that does not hide the knife is called Bulldogging. You can read about them on page 163-165 of his book, "Street Smarts, Firearms and Personal Security."

These are the slang terms given to these techniques in prison. So they are known and practiced by criminals. If you are talking about self defense you can't ignore the reality that the most likely to try to kill you with a knife are training so that they make you think they don't have a knife.

So I think we can throw the idea that you can go into a battle in either a 'unarmed' or 'armed' mindset. The law and morality will not let you treat a guy who throws punches at you with the same amount of force that you would if you knew he had a knife. But you can't treat him as if he were just going to try to punch you. You have to assume that he may have a weapon and will pull it at some point- if it is not already hidden in his hand.

So far, a lot of folks may be asking what is the point. All of this may be something you have heard already. But my point is that a lot of artists seem to look at combat like it was a tennis match. You throw something, then maybe the other guys throws something.

Well, when I look at Hatsumi I see pool. To be more exact, I see Hatsumi as a pool shark. Once he has the shot, the other guy never gets a chance to make another. He clears the table and the other guy is just along for the ride. If they guy has a knife, he never gets to use the thing. He can't touch Hatsumi with anything. Hatsumi controls his entire body so that a hand of the other guy can't reach him. For unarmed stuff, a guy who can scratch you, and not much else, is not a credible threat. But if the guy has hidden a knife in his hand, then that scratch can kill. Hatsumi does not let him get that hand anywhere near him.

But I see a lot of Bujinkan folks that seem to be doing taijutsu as if it were a tennis match. Instead of luring in a committed attack and then taking control of the guy, it is a case of give and take. And you don't want to do that with a knife. In some cases I see Bujinkan members allow touches to them that can't do much damage as long as it is merely an unarmed situation. But as I said, you can't assume that you will know that it is an unarmed situation.

So I think more Bujinkan members should take a look at what Hatsumi does and try to watch for what I am talking about. If you look for it, it will become clear. Hatsumi is playing pool, not tennis. A guy had a knife would never be able to use it on him because he always moves in such way that he would be safe from it.

People might want to read more about knife fighting realities and how much they rely on surprise and deception by reading Marc MacYoung's web site at www.nononsenseselfdefense.com. He was also the guy who first drew contrasts with fighting and the way a pool shark works.

But once you read it, and take a good, long look at Hatsumi, I really hope that I see a lot less tennis going on in the dojo.

May I have your permission to post this on my blog?

 

[Dale Seago]

Don, just FYI, Andy is not a Bujinkan practitioner; but he is a fellow Moderator over at http://swordforum.com and a good guy. . .

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Thanks for the kind words, Dale. Yeah, not a Bujinkan student, but Dale's known me for like 4-5 years now from SFI, and I'm proud to call him my friend.

 

[Don Roley]

Well any friend of Dale's..... had better keep his hands where I can see them. :2pistols:

I give you permision on the condition that you edit in something I missed. The line,

So I think we can throw the idea that you can go into a battle in either a 'unarmed' or 'armed' mindset.

should read

So I think we can throw out the idea that you can go into a battle in either an 'unarmed' or 'armed' mindset.

Otherwise, I have no problem with the idea.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Thanks

*Moves away slowly to his blog with both hands in plain sight making no sudden moves*

 

[ginshun]

I have seen that study before. I think there is actually a video on youtube about knife defense that brings it up. I tend to agree, if you are actually training for self defence as opposed to, I don't know, any other reason I suppose, then you should always be of the mindset that the other person could be concealing a weapon.

I really like the idea of having a training knife and bringing it out at random times.

I'll see if I can find the video.

 

[Dale Seago]

Some further views on "the reality of weapons" and how their presence influences things, from the head of the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program:

LET'S ROLL???​

The Realities of Armored and Weapons Grappling

Lieutenant Colonel G. H. Bristol, USMC
I still speak to a lot of young Marines about the MCMAP. I still see them get excited about their first belt; the first time they spar; and the first time they do a technique and it works. Like them, I remember a lot of firsts, and, most of all, my first combative love: JUDO. I have had a longstanding affair with Judo - I just passed 38 years of training. I still have my competition medals; old judogi; bad knees; and great memories. I would not change a thing.
However, realities of life have brought to light the weakness of sport grappling. When I was 14, I was stabbed "shooting in" to take another guy down in Providence, Rhode Island. Cut badly, I backed up, picked up a piece of wood, and proceeded to beat the guy to a pulp. Why didn't I pick up the board first? Later, as a Marine, I saw combat and realized that - with all the gear that we need to survive on a battlefield - grappling would never be the action of choice. Had I wasted all those years?
The answer is no, but the MCMAP - and in particular its Instructor population - must "come to grips" (to use a Judo term) with its grappling emphasis and method of instruction. More than any other excess, Marines want to learn how to "roll." It is a fact that the oldest form of male bonding is WRESTLING. As young men, sooner of later we begin to grapple with each other; it is sort of a "king of the hill" experience. Male animals - during the competition for mating - engage in rough grappling prior to choosing up a mate. These tendencies - and the tremendous explosion of grappling and mixed martial arts in mainstream media - have brought grappling to a new level of interest.
The MCMAP - to be viable as a Corps culture entity long-term - must first and foremost maintain its applicability on today's - and tomorrow's - battlefield. Grappling - while first among equals as a sport, a conditioning exponent, and a bonding agent - can become an end in itself and more importantly, a bad habit in real close-in fighting. We are not training Marines to be UFC participants; we are training them for functional efficiency and dominance on a battlefield.
The following essay deals with the realities of grappling training, transmission, and application.
THE ENVIRONMENT
Sport grappling is conducted in a controlled environment. While that environment is rough, hard, and demanding, it is constructed to even up the participants. There are weight classes, rules of what can and cannot be executed, time limits, and safety apparatus (mats, referees, etc) to ensure the conduct of a match is executed within established parameters. I have lost count of the different mixed martial arts (UFC/Shooto/Pancrase et al) that are all grappling organizations.
At the other end of the spectrum is a battlefield: an uncontrolled environment. If two Marines were somehow unarmed and placed in a battlefield situation against one opponent, they could charge him - together; fish hook him and eye gouge him; pick him up and smash him head first on the pavement; and them stomp him to death with their boots. The "contest" would be completely fair.

THE EXPONENTS

I wrote a speech once entitled "All Life's Lessons are Learned in a Wrestling Room." It remains one of the toughest environments on earth. Well conditioned, motivated, and dedicated men push, pull, run, lift, and fall - and then cut weight. It provides an iron will and the ability to bear pain and accept victory and defeat on a minute-by-minute basis. Many of them are in a closed social nexus; it remains a cloistered world. One of my closest friends - legendary Iowa wrestler Joel Sharratt - told me once that "wrestling - at any level - is a total commitment where everything comes second. You eat and breathe it..." When I am interviewing Marines for Recon, if they tell me they have wrestled, I will always give them a shot because of this intensity.
Marines - and I am speaking about the Corps at large - are dedicated individuals as well. However, they rarely get the time to practice their PRIMARY discipline: Rifleman. To even suggest that they would have the time to conduct the arduous specificity that grapplers must endure is simply ridiculous. If anything, the combative training piece must be tailored to give them the most application in the least amount of time.
THE "X" FACTOR
Additionally, the "X" factor is the fact that Marines will rarely - if ever - find an unarmed situation on a battlefield in which sport-style grappling techniques will work without modification. There will be a weapon, a piece of terrain, or a conditioning dilemma as well to blur the purity of the single leg takedown, the counter to the guard, or one of the many situational responses (counter/submission, etc.) found in numerous grappling systems today.
Experienced grapplers can probably weather the storm more readily. An elite level wrestler or grappler can "subdue" unarmed opponents because of high-level repetition. Likewise, their major strength - aggression and lack of fear of contact - makes them good candidates for the transition to weapons-based systems. But to think that teaching a Marine hours of grappling - on a mat with wrestling shoes - will make him effective on a battlefield by hitting the ground is a bad habit that will cost lives.
ELIMINATE THE THREAT-PROTECT THE FORCE-ACCOMPLISH THE MISSION
I believe strongly that the answer lies in Weapons-based grappling. In the past, MCMAP training has included some back-to-back, "go for the knife" engagements that place some reality in close-in fighting. The scenario always plays out the same: the Marine who gets the knife goes wild trying to cut and then Marine who doesn't attempts to keep the knife away. The knife-wielder is super-aggressive and the unarmed opponent is super-defensive. It is a great reality trainer.
I would offer to the MCMAP Instructor community to take it further, using these points as a guideline:
1) Begin all grappling at standing from a distance of 20 or more feet apart
2) Use a combination of weapons (rifle/knife/stick) in dissimilar fashion (IE, one Marine armed with a rifle, one unarmed; one Marine with a knife, one with a stick, etc.)
3) Use full combat gear (to include helmet)
4) Do not train this grappling on a mat - always train it outdoors
5) Conduct the engagement after a brief (but intense) physical event (an Obstacle Course run is perfect)
I have conducted this training at 3d Reconnaissance Battalion on several occasions. I have concluded the following from a GRAPPLING perspective:
1) Going to close-in fighting armed with a weapon teaches the Marine distancing, timing, and targeting to end an engagement before it comes to "Let's wrestle"
2) There is much more of a tendency (after going to the ground once or twice) to use techniques such as the leg sweep (or at the very least off-balancing techniques) to get the opponent to fall - hard - and not fall yourself. The Marines realize that if they "tie up" with weapons that they must execute immediately and not spend time "gripping" with each other
3) Fatigue will allow the Marine to be much more eager to end an engagement quickly, thus saving him from harm (of any level)
4) I have allowed multiple Marines to go against a single opponent. I have NEVER seen a ground fight from one of these situations other than the opponent being beaten to his knees
5) Marines understand better the brutal nature of this type of fighting and use their weapons to end an engagement from proper engagement distance
NO MORE GRAPPLING???
I approach my fourth decade as a grappler with that same love for the sport I had as a boy. I still like to get on a mat and go through some takedown drills or mat work (I even like to hit the sauna to "shed a few" on occasion!). I believe that grappling can be a tremendous conditioner; a motivator; and a bonding experience for Marines. I propose the following for "Grappling CONDITIONING for Marines":
1) MAIs/MAITs should view/participate in a wrestling practice run by a high school/college coach (Joel Sharratt is my ideal)
2) Emphasize MOVEMENT, MOBILITY, and BASIC TIE-UP, TAKEDOWN, and GROUND CONTROL - nothing fancy.
3) Stress REPETITION and CHANGING PARTNERS
4) Limit the "Choke Hold Number 74" thing for small groups. Most of the non-grapplers will never do these fancy techniques enough to ever make them work anyway.
5) Place some calisthenics, tumbling, and plyometric movement into the mix.
6) Use college-wrestling videos to motivate Marines to train with enthusiasm. One of the greatest is DAN GABLE - COMPETITOR SUPREME.
7) Use the sauna - a wrestling staple - for a post workout-bonding agent. Due it safely!
8) Don't do it too often. Keep Marines motivated to do it, but stress the realities of weapons. 90% of the "grappling program" should be weapons-based grappling.
I have never heard of a battle being won with a "high crotch" or a submission hold. A rifle and bayonet has carried the day for the Corps "in every clime and place." The reality is that Marines will do what they think is fun before they will do what is hard. Grappling - with all its effort - fun. Killing is not. The MCMAP must remain functional, not strive to be popular nor allow itself to wander from its basic endeavor: AN INTEGRATED FIGHTING SYSTEM FOR ALL MARINES.

(https://www.tbs.usmc.mil/Pages/MA/media/docs/docs/LET'S%20ROLL.htm)

 

[Bigshadow]

Great post Dale! I see Lt. Col. Bristol has quite a different view than the Army guys I was watching train on the Military channel where they were doing BJJ on a mat indoors.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

That is a very nice post Dale!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

 

[ginshun]

Here is the knife defense video on Youtube that I mentioned if anybody is interested. Basic conclusion is that if the other person has a knife, get the **** away. Unless it is absolutely impossible to get away, running is a better option than fighting, regardless of your training.

Be warned, it does contain some graphic pics of knife wounds.

 

[Shizen Shigoku]

This reminds me of a situation that always seems to come up in the dojo:

We'll be practicing hanbo kata; defender (tori) has the stick, attacker (uke) is unarmed and throws a punch. Invariably, some beginner will ask one of the following: If uke, "why would I throw a punch at someone holding a stick?!" / If tori, "why would I use a stick against an unarmed person?!"

All I have to say to them is: "What if the seemingly unarmed person actually has a knife and you just don't see it?"

Or sometimes: "What if the stick is concealed?"

This usually elicits an "Ohhhhh. . . " and some nods of appreciation, then training gets a little more serious.


Just thought of something else that could be applicable:

Locks / reversals (gyakugi) done from a grab (omote kote gyaku dori from katamune dori, e.g.) are usually first practiced from a static position after uke has a firm grasp - to simplify things and also to show how it works from a worst-case scenario.

After getting an understanding of the technique however, it is better to perform it on the move and before uke is able to get a secure grab.

I suppose another good reason for that is: What if there is a small sharp object in that grabbing hand?


Be safe,
train hard.

:bows:

 

[Bigshadow]

Here is the knife defense video on Youtube that I mentioned if anybody is interested. Basic conclusion is that if the other person has a knife, get the **** away. Unless it is absolutely impossible to get away, running is a better option than fighting, regardless of your training.

Be warned, it does contain some graphic pics of knife wounds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?search=knife+defense&v=7tHf_pvv4zo

I wouldn't call that video a knife defense video. IMHO, the best part of that video is the section that shows the police officers getting attacked. That is much closer to reality than the last section where they were dueling.

The one thing in common that I saw with the police officers, were they stayed in the same place, never moved. They would have gotten clobbered whether there was a knife or not.

IMHO the video has really nothing of value in it. It seems to be more a marketing video.

 

[budoboy]

I think the "3 out of 85 officers never knew they were attacked by a knife" is misleading since they were attacked with a chalk marker. I bet they might have had a clue if they were stabbed or slashed for real.

Jeff

 

[Kreth]

I think the "3 out of 85 officers never knew they were attacked by a knife" is misleading since they were attacked with a chalk marker. I bet they might have had a clue if they were stabbed or slashed for real.

That's not always the case. A former instructor of mine was stabbed in the back, and he told me that he thought he'd been punched until he felt the blade shifting around in his back. Some of the officers in that video may very well have been dead before they realized the attacker had a knife, had it been for real.

 

[cloud]

Great post, highly educated. The website you gave has huge amount of information, especially the statistical data.

Cloud

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I wouldn't call that video a knife defense video. IMHO, the best part of that video is the section that shows the police officers getting attacked. That is much closer to reality than the last section where they were dueling.

The one thing in common that I saw with the police officers, were they stayed in the same place, never moved. They would have gotten clobbered whether there was a knife or not.

IMHO the video has really nothing of value in it. It seems to be more a marketing video.

You are right. They never moved. If they had moved off line and drawn their handgun they probably would have been able to shoot the attacker easily. I know this because we have done this drill in my training hall with air pistols and rubber knives. Staying on line with around 21 feet of distance will probably get you stabbed or slashed. However, as soon as we practice side stepping and drawing the person with the knife cannot change direction once they have seriously committed themselves and then they are vulnerable to be shot.

The other note about the video is that when you observe someone with their hand behind their back, that should send up some serious red flags! What are they hiding? That would be an excellent moment to quickly back up create space and pull your handgun and tell them to get on the ground. The subtle signals that people give off need to be picked up in order to survive in a violent encounter.

The last dueling portion of the video is really just that. The person without the knife should have sidestepped closed and entangled/trapped the other person. To always stay close and kick and basically do nothing is going to ensure that you get cut and stabbed. How realistic was that, if you cannot run away or you do not attempt any sort of control of the opponent. They just did that to prove their point that you will be cut and nothing more.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com