OK, who do I trust???

Toshindo4ever

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You do realize how ironic this statement is, right?

I have communicated with Anshu over the matter. Have you? Have you gotten a statement from Hatsumi sensei himself about the matter, or are you going by what others with their own agendas have been saying?

Are you afraid to admit you were fooled? Or are you looking to gain by tearing down a great man?

I see that one of the biggest rumor mongers used to be a moderator here. I consider this unfriendly territory. But the truth must get out. You can't find anything by Anshu that says that he is no longer a student of Hatsumi sensei. Unless you want to get the real story straight from him, you are merely dealing with heresay.
 

Kreth

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I have communicated with Anshu over the matter. Have you? Have you gotten a statement from Hatsumi sensei himself about the matter, or are you going by what others with their own agendas have been saying?
No, I've spoken with several people *who were there*, at Honbu, when Hatsumi sensei made the announcement. I fail to see what possible agenda they could have, since many are still living and training in Japan.

You can't find anything by Anshu that says that he is no longer a student of Hatsumi sensei.
Of course you won't. That would be bad for business.

Unless you want to get the real story straight from him, you are merely dealing with heresay.
Did you mean hearsay or heresy? :idunno:
 

jks9199

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toshindo4ever
...cult members will not listen to the truth
You do realize how ironic this statement is, right?

No, I don't think he does.

It's quite simple to me. Whatever his current relationship to the Bujinkan organization or Hatsumi directly, Hayes made very important contributions to the martial arts in the US, and is probably one of the people most responsible for sharing Hatsumi's art in the West. But he's definitely moved on in his own path, also, and what he is teaching is not the same as what's being taught in the Bujinkan today. I'm not qualified to say if it's close enough to be the same or different enough to be new -- but those who are seem to think it's different.
 

Toshindo4ever

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Of course you won't. That would be bad for business.

So you are trying to say that Anshu is not telling the whole truth. That is not the type of person he is. I know him and he would never do anything like this.

I see your agenda, and I see that you are a moderator. My communication with you is over. I won't be banned for arguing with someone who obviously has an agenda and has the power you do.
 

Toshindo4ever

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No, I don't think he does.
Whatever his current relationship to the Bujinkan organization or Hatsumi directly, Hayes made very important contributions to the martial arts in the US, and is probably one of the people most responsible for sharing Hatsumi's art in the West. But he's definitely moved on in his own path, also, and what he is teaching is not the same as what's being taught in the Bujinkan today.

Since you seem to be an honest seeker of truth, I will respond to what YOU wrote.

You confuse the fact that Anshu teaches other things outside of Bujinkan with the idea that he can't teach Bujinkan.

The simple truth is that you can't find anything in Toshindo that you won't also find in Bujinkan. But there is also other things taken from other arts and real life experiences that are also taught as well.

So if you want to learn Gyokko ryu or bojutsu, you can still learn it in Toshindo just as well if not better than Bujinkan dojos. But you will also get to use red suits and other things in addition.

Toshindo added things, it did not drop anything from the Bujinkan. And Anshu is still gaining new knowledge about the Bujinkan despite what you may hear. Go ahead and get the story from the source instead of from the internet.
 

newtothe dark

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Since you seem to be an honest seeker of truth, I will respond to what YOU wrote.

You confuse the fact that Anshu teaches other things outside of Bujinkan with the idea that he can't teach Bujinkan.

The simple truth is that you can't find anything in Toshindo that you won't also find in Bujinkan. But there is also other things taken from other arts and real life experiences that are also taught as well.

So if you want to learn Gyokko ryu or bojutsu, you can still learn it in Toshindo just as well if not better than Bujinkan dojos. But you will also get to use red suits and other things in addition.

Toshindo added things, it did not drop anything from the Bujinkan. And Anshu is still gaining new knowledge about the Bujinkan despite what you may hear. Go ahead and get the story from the source instead of from the internet.

Okay whats this about "Red Suits"???????
 

The Last Legionary

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Hayes may teach material based on what he learned while he was actively training with Hatsumi, but he is not teaching current Bujinkan material. He (Hayes) himself stated that "I was captivated by the idea of translating the gift of Hatsumi Sensei's lessons into a form that could serve my own culture and people back in America."

Translated. It is a known fact that things change when translated. The heart, the intent, might be there, but over time Hayes ToShinDo has evolved into a completely different art than the current Bujinkan Taijutsu, though both do share many common roots.

Enjoy the art you do, stop sucking on the tit of the kool aid monster and drop te mask of the "True Believer" and you'll have more fun here.
 

Grenadier

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ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

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Toshindo4ever

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Hayes may teach material based on what he learned while he was actively training with Hatsumi, but he is not teaching current Bujinkan material.

As I said in another thread, when talking about traditions hundreds of years old, the idea of "current" training is silly.

The idea that the art had to be modified so that those who do not have the skills or relationship Anshu does must drive some people nuts. And that is the reason for all the rumors that what he does is not correct, that he did not spend as much time as he says in Japan and all the other stuff that just does not stand up under the light of truth.
 

Kreth

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As I said in another thread, when talking about traditions hundreds of years old, the idea of "current" training is silly.
While I'm sure you'd like to believe that Bujinkan training is stagnant, I have seen Hatsumi sensei teach pistol techniques several times, for example. AFAIK, they didn't exist hundreds of years ago :idunno:
 

The Last Legionary

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Americans and Japanese do things differently, have different "minds". Few Americans will let go of their "culture" to see through the others eyes. Hayes may have done that, but most of his students won't. You are a good example of this.

Comments about how much/little on the mat time he has spent the last years in Japan are all over the place. What Stephen Hayes does now is not what Dr. Hatsumi does now. They teach two different arts, that share in part, a common root.

The fact that the two arts are separate, has been made clear by both gentlemen, on several occasions.

As I said in another thread, when talking about traditions hundreds of years old, the idea of "current" training is silly.

The idea that the art had to be modified so that those who do not have the skills or relationship Anshu does must drive some people nuts. And that is the reason for all the rumors that what he does is not correct, that he did not spend as much time as he says in Japan and all the other stuff that just does not stand up under the light of truth.
 

Cryozombie

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Maybe idiots and cult members will not listen to the truth.

Yes, this you made this clear in your posts. Idiots and Cult members do not listen to the truth.

Say, how much have you shelled out to Hayes for your "Teach yourself to be a Ninja at home in your spare time" home study course anyhow? :lfao::lfao::lfao::lfao:
 

arnisador

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While I'm sure you'd like to believe that Bujinkan training is stagnant, I have seen Hatsumi sensei teach pistol techniques several times, for example. AFAIK, they didn't exist hundreds of years ago

Pistol disarms techniques are new in ninjutsu? That's surprising, since pistols in Europe date to the 1400s and firearms have been in Japan since at least the 1500s. Why didn't ninjas develop ways to deal with them?
 

Kreth

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Pistol disarms techniques are new in ninjutsu? That's surprising, since pistols in Europe date to the 1400s and firearms have been in Japan since at least the 1500s. Why didn't ninjas develop ways to deal with them?
I'm talking about modern pistols. I remember specifically being shown a multi attacker scenario, shooting at one attacker while restraining another in such a way that the slide knocked him out as you fired.
 

jks9199

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I'm talking about modern pistols. I remember specifically being shown a multi attacker scenario, shooting at one attacker while restraining another in such a way that the slide knocked him out as you fired.
Novel...

I'd have to see it, but I suspect that you'd find that doesn't work so good in reality. A semi-auto pistol takes advantage of the energy that's moving the slide to chamber the next round (over simplistic as that explanation is). If you stop that short, or interfere with it, say by hitting someone's head with the slide... you may well find that the next round won't be chambered properly. "Limp wristing" where too much of the recoil energy is dissipated through the weak grip, and letting the slide hit the barricade are common causes of malfunctions, in my experience.
 

Obi Wan Shinobi

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Mr. ToShin Do4ever well heres the thing here....and that is there is no "best" martial art. There just is whatever best suites an individual's needs. Personally though I trained in TSD for about a year and found that is wasn't what I was looking for. But when I began training in Bujinkan...FOR ME there is no other martial arts that meets all my martial needs like Bujinkan does. And I would say that is true for you when it comes to ToShin Do. But to come here and say that ToShin Do has everything the Bujinkan has to offer and more is just disrespectful for if there was no Bujinkan then there never could have been ToShin Do. Thats like a kid telling his parents that they don't know anything yet they've experience life alot longer..........
 

kaizasosei

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i consider Hatsumisensei and Takamatsusensei as trustable. I like Hayessensei stuff from back in the day, but now im confused and a little disappointed. i followed in toshindo for a while silently, but then i nested with Richard VanDonk Shihan-and was close to getting a homestudy course to get some frigging ranking finally-not only that, i truly believe in the homestudy course and have faith in Master vanDonk, but for whatever reason, i did not end up purchasing the course and entering the program-

it really does suck sometimes when everywhere you go you dont achieve any sufficient rank to be able to stand up to foolish critisism or emotional terror. aside from ma studies as a kid with judo classes,ninjustu books ,cma communities,aikido and iai books, kempo movies and magazines,taekwondo classes,karate blocks etc.etc.- most recently i was involved with taking classes in takedabudo aikijujustu as well as meiyukai aikido ,bujinkan dojo,experienced some lessons with master Wang Dong Feng-taichi-shaolin. self study of nitoichryu kenjutsu-most recently studied chin na techniques in detail from material of master Yang Jwing Ming as well as taken a look at other chinna sources.

i want to meet Hatsumisensei and train hard in japan. i am trying to find a way. now i have found a good job so it's hard to leave right now....i am having to make a decision. or maybe at some point i can get permission to leave for a while and come back here, but i almost feel like i want to move to japan if i can this time. being in japan more than 5 times and not making the effort to go to see the dojo...shame on me. i even practiced pancrase hybrib wrestling the last time i was in japan. i did well i think under the circumstances of poisoning and periods of homelessness.
Hopefully next time i can plan my trip out a little better and arrive at the destination i seem to always be missing.

j
 
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allenjp

allenjp

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i consider Hatsumisensei and Takamatsusensei as trustable. I like Hayessensei stuff from back in the day, but now im confused and a little disappointed. i followed in toshindo for a while silently, but then i nested with Richard VanDonk Shihan-and was close to getting a homestudy course to get some frigging ranking finally-not only that, i truly believe in the homestudy course and have faith in Master vanDonk, but for whatever reason, i did not end up purchasing the course and entering the program-

it really does suck sometimes when everywhere you go you dont achieve any sufficient rank to be able to stand up to foolish critisism or emotional terror. aside from ma studies as a kid with judo classes,ninjustu books ,cma communities,aikido and iai books, kempo movies and magazines,taekwondo classes,karate blocks etc.etc.- most recently i was involved with taking classes in takedabudo aikijujustu as well as meiyukai aikido ,bujinkan dojo,experienced some lessons with master Wang Dong Feng-taichi-shaolin. self study of nitoichryu kenjutsu-most recently studied chin na techniques in detail from material of master Yang Jwing Ming as well as taken a look at other chinna sources.

i want to meet Hatsumisensei and train hard in japan. i am trying to find a way. now i have found a good job so it's hard to leave right now....i am having to make a decision. or maybe at some point i can get permission to leave for a while and come back here, but i almost feel like i want to move to japan if i can this time. being in japan more than 5 times and not making the effort to go to see the dojo...shame on me. i even practiced pancrase hybrib wrestling the last time i was in japan. i did well i think under the circumstances of poisoning and periods of homelessness.
Hopefully next time i can plan my trip out a little better and arrive at the destination i seem to always be missing.

j

WOW! Interesting to see where THIS thread went...
 
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