The Non Spinning back fist.

chrissyp

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So does anyone have luck using the back fist, as power shot? I'm not talking about the spinning BF, but either using it like a jab/lead attack or as follow up for power? Other than for point sparring, I can't see much use in it, as I personally have trouble generating power with it.

Just wondering if anyone has any experience with this technique, and if so, could give me some advice on how to set it up, and use it (Keep in mind, this is NOT the SPINNING back fist)
 

Touch Of Death

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There are two methods: The easiest, but slowest, is to coil your hand over your heart with the elbow up high, and just let it roll out at the target; the second is to hug center line and turn it into a thrust. It helps if you stick it with a bracing angle, in your stance work. THIS IS, WAX ON WAX OFF, stuff. o_O
 

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If you're using your arm to generate power for your strikes, you're doing it wrong.
If you're using the proper body mechanics, then you'll be able to generate power. No, it's not as powerful as the rear hand, but it is powerful, done properly.
Proper body mechanics requires the use of the entire body. The hips, torso and shoulders need to be rotating.
 
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chrissyp

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If you're using your arm to generate power for your strikes, you're doing it wrong.
If you're using the proper body mechanics, then you'll be able to generate power. No, it's not as powerful as the rear hand, but it is powerful, done properly.
Proper body mechanics requires the use of the entire body. The hips, torso and shoulders need to be rotating.
Ty. I'm not trying to use my arm, it's just a matter of me finding the right body mechanics to make it flow with power. I DO LIKE that it's an unorthodox punch, and comes from odd angles, and it can flow from into one technique to another very smoothly.
 

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Ty. I'm not trying to use my arm, it's just a matter of me finding the right body mechanics to make it flow with power. I DO LIKE that it's an unorthodox punch, and comes from odd angles, and it can flow from into one technique to another very smoothly.

You shouldn't need to "find" the mechanics. Your instructor should be able to show you how power is generated within the system you're studying (there's more than one way to skin a cat). You need only practice the mechanics as you're taught them.
 

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So does anyone have luck using the back fist, as power shot? I'm not talking about the spinning BF, but either using it like a jab/lead attack or as follow up for power? Other than for point sparring, I can't see much use in it, as I personally have trouble generating power with it.

Just wondering if anyone has any experience with this technique, and if so, could give me some advice on how to set it up, and use it (Keep in mind, this is NOT the SPINNING back fist)
I use the lead backfist to smash into the opponents lead forearm and then punch him in the face with my right hand. In terms of knockout power from the backfist itself it's more effective if the opponent isn't wearing a helmet and you catch him on the button
 

gpseymour

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Ty. I'm not trying to use my arm, it's just a matter of me finding the right body mechanics to make it flow with power. I DO LIKE that it's an unorthodox punch, and comes from odd angles, and it can flow from into one technique to another very smoothly.
Okay, here's something odd that worked for me. I'm not sure why, so if it doesn't make sense to you, skip it. I learned to generate power properly in a backfist by working on a backhand chop. I don't know why that worked for me, because the power generation isn't really the same, but the backhand chop was easier for me to get the mechanics right. Then I transferred that "feel" of not depending upon the arm. Maybe it mapped well for me because the chop's range can mimic the range of any of the backfists (spinning, from the heart, and up the center). It only misses the "upward backfist" (my name for a strike that operates like a straight punch, but with the palm turned up - intended to allow use of the first 2 knuckles on a tall person's face, which is useful for initiating a couple of our techniques).
 

Bill Mattocks

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My non-spinning backfist is not thrown as a power shot, primarily. It can be powerful, but that is not the basic intent.

There are a variety of ways to throw the backfist. The one seen in the 'ure uchi seiken tsuki' exercise in the style of Isshinryu I practice looks like I'm reaching up to grab my own ear, followed by a snapping motion; the wrist 'breaks' to allow the back of the knuckles to strike like a whip being snapped.

Alternatively, when there is no time to raise the arm so high, it can be thrown from the hip as if it were an Isshinryu uppercut (not a boxer's uppercut), again with the snapping whip-like motion at the end.

As to power, I've practiced my backfist on drywall and smashed through it with no effort. I've hit a few things I oughtn't have and paid the price; the power was definitely there.

Another option is to throw the backfist as a sideways strike, as seen in the Isshinryu Kusanku and Sunsu katas. Again, a snapping backfist that cracks like a whip.

My 'spinning' backfist still generates power the same way; with the whip-like snap. The main difference is that I'm adding the power of the turning hips, shoulders, etc.
 

gpseymour

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My non-spinning backfist is not thrown as a power shot, primarily. It can be powerful, but that is not the basic intent.

There are a variety of ways to throw the backfist. The one seen in the 'ure uchi seiken tsuki' exercise in the style of Isshinryu I practice looks like I'm reaching up to grab my own ear, followed by a snapping motion; the wrist 'breaks' to allow the back of the knuckles to strike like a whip being snapped.

Alternatively, when there is no time to raise the arm so high, it can be thrown from the hip as if it were an Isshinryu uppercut (not a boxer's uppercut), again with the snapping whip-like motion at the end.

As to power, I've practiced my backfist on drywall and smashed through it with no effort. I've hit a few things I oughtn't have and paid the price; the power was definitely there.

Another option is to throw the backfist as a sideways strike, as seen in the Isshinryu Kusanku and Sunsu katas. Again, a snapping backfist that cracks like a whip.

My 'spinning' backfist still generates power the same way; with the whip-like snap. The main difference is that I'm adding the power of the turning hips, shoulders, etc.
I'll have to play with that next week. The room I use on Tuesdays has a Century Reactor bag - a good place to try new strikes. Incidentally, that same room is used once a week by an Isshinryu group.
 
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chrissyp

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Okay, here's something odd that worked for me. I'm not sure why, so if it doesn't make sense to you, skip it. I learned to generate power properly in a backfist by working on a backhand chop. I don't know why that worked for me, because the power generation isn't really the same, but the backhand chop was easier for me to get the mechanics right. Then I transferred that "feel" of not depending upon the arm. Maybe it mapped well for me because the chop's range can mimic the range of any of the backfists (spinning, from the heart, and up the center). It only misses the "upward backfist" (my name for a strike that operates like a straight punch, but with the palm turned up - intended to allow use of the first 2 knuckles on a tall person's face, which is useful for initiating a couple of our techniques).

That's kinda the similar physics I play with. like a back hand chop. I can throw it out like a jab from an off angle....

Follow me what i'm trying to say on this one: from orthodox stance, When I throw a 1, 2 combo, and I load my weight up, like I would throw a 3 (lead hook), I instead take my right hand and throw that as a back fist since it's loaded up already, which I think could work as a great angle, but i'm not sure how strong of a punch it is, or how practical.
 

gpseymour

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That's kinda the similar physics I play with. like a back hand chop. I can throw it out like a jab from an off angle....

Follow me what i'm trying to say on this one: from orthodox stance, When I throw a 1, 2 combo, and I load my weight up, like I would throw a 3 (lead hook), I instead take my right hand and throw that as a back fist since it's loaded up already, which I think could work as a great angle, but i'm not sure how strong of a punch it is, or how practical.
Without seeing it, I'm not sure of the exact strikes you're referring to (we don't use those same terms), but a backfist can certainly carry some power. It's easier to generate power in a hook/roundhouse, and I carry more power in those, but the backfist can be quicker in some situations (hand is already there) and certainly carries enough power to be useful. I find a backhand strike easier to block, but then every strike has some compromise.
 

Touch Of Death

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Without seeing it, I'm not sure of the exact strikes you're referring to (we don't use those same terms), but a backfist can certainly carry some power. It's easier to generate power in a hook/roundhouse, and I carry more power in those, but the backfist can be quicker in some situations (hand is already there) and certainly carries enough power to be useful. I find a backhand strike easier to block, but then every strike has some compromise.
Mohamad Ali, used them all the time. Blockable? Maybe, if you can see them coming.
 

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Mohamad Ali, used them all the time. Blockable? Maybe, if you can see them coming.
That's always the challenge. They can be quick. I was talking about the technical aspects. Because the elbow is on the lead side, a shallower block will be effective than would be required on a round/forehand attack. The versions that translate into a straight strike are subject to most of the same qualities as a regular straight punch (blockable on either side, hard to see).
 

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It's not a power shot like a hook punch but it sucks to get hit with especially if you can connect to the ear.
 

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Bit off topic but on your alternating maces it looks like you do an inward block before dropping to your downward block. What's your application for that? As the technique as I learnt it is a 2 hand push so you'd want to go down straight to the downward to stop the push? Not critisisng or saying you're ways wrong just interested to know what that movement is.
 

Touch Of Death

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Bit off topic but on your alternating maces it looks like you do an inward block before dropping to your downward block. What's your application for that? As the technique as I learnt it is a 2 hand push so you'd want to go down straight to the downward to stop the push? Not critisisng or saying you're ways wrong just interested to know what that movement is.
I agree it isn't what you were taught, and I see this a lot. I am starting to think we are the only ones that do this. LOL, The idea is that you are just doing, Attacking Mace, against a push, so that these techs feel the same. Not to be a jerk, but I would like to see a video of you surviving that first move, in a technique line, against a bunch of big mean dudes. :D
 

Touch Of Death

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In fact the only difference between Alternating Maces, and Attacking mace is the distance created by Forward Bow, The greater distance makes a back knuckle slower than a kick.
 
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