Spin hook kick

[mastercole]

There is no specified answer for the best way to counter back hook kick. It is countered just like every other kick and that depends on the skill of both fighters.

- when and how is the back hook kick being applied, as an off the line attack? as step in attack? as a step back attack? as a forward moving counter to round kick? as a backward moving counter to round kick?

I can come up with 20 more variances I have seen in matches. All can have different answers. Then throw in what is the strengths and weakness of the person that is being back hook kicked?

If it's off the line attack with back hook kick, I might say to one fighter under kick. A fighter that can not under kick well I might say cut kick. A different fighter who has an amazing back hook kick I might say counter hook kick. To some one who can't kick well, I would say were a thick headgear and a very good mouth piece.

 

[mastercole]

All should understand that the spinning hook (or as we like to call it, the back spinning kick) is by default a defensive or counter kick to the round house kick. To attack with it makes it an eash kick to counter. It is when the kick is use as it is intended, countering that it becomes dangerous and hard to counter, as you would be trying to counter and counter.

Now with that said one way to attack with the spin hook kick is to add a step first or a roundhouse kick in front of the spin hook. This would force your opponent to counter the step or the round kick leaving your second move or kick of the spin hook as a natural counter to their counter. Now you don't have to step or round kick to force them to kick you, you simply need to have a type of movement to force a round house or step in by your opponent. There are many way to setup the kick but in the end it is a kick best used as a counter not an attack by itself.

This is why the kick is so hard to counter and can be used effectivly by good fighters that understand the kick. This is also why the side or front cut/push kick is an effect counter. The round kick can simply be redirected or altered in motion to push not strike, and simply move the opponent aleady in motion off his axis making the spin kick miss and sending the opponent off balance and most likely falling down. If you continue with the round kick you may strike the body at the same time you are being struck in the head and although and even exchange of kicks happended, the spin hook would be the winning kick as it is more devastating than the simple round kick to the body. Any round kick to the head would simply miss as the natural position of the spin hook moves the head out of range of the round kick.

Not sure if I put the words down on the screen correctly or not, Hope I made some sort of sense.

It all made sense. I would probably ask my fighter if they left their brain at home if they were launching attack back spin hook kicks and not using them as counters, and rarely at that. Unless of course the other person lacked the skills to respond, in that case I would tell my fighter to just get ahead in the score, don't hurt the guy and run out the clock, save it for the next match.

 

[puunui]

All should understand that the spinning hook (or as we like to call it, the back spinning kick) is by default a defensive or counter kick to the round house kick. To attack with it makes it an easy kick to counter. It is when the kick is use as it is intended, countering, that it becomes dangerous and hard to counter, as you would be trying to counter a counter kick.

I was waiting and hoping someone would mention this. good job. Also, all or most of the counters discussed above focus mainly on the offensive use of spin hook kick, when someone is coming forward at you and trying to use the kick offensively. There has been little discussion about defenses when spin hook is used to counter your kick in mid motion or when you are otherwise committed to doing something. For example, if someone is committed to roundhouse, and the opponent responds with a spin hook, it is difficult to effectuate a cut kick counter to the spin hook.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Thanks for all the info everyone. Makes for interesting reading, especially looking at spin hook as a counter/defensive kick which is a new way of looking at it for me.

 

[Gorilla]

We use the spin hook as an offensive kick by trying to draw out a round house that we will counter with a spin hook. The attacker thinking they have an easy point and then bam. Never use it as a attacking kick per se.

 

[puunui]

I would probably ask my fighter if they left their brain at home if they were launching attack back spin hook kicks and not using them as counters, and rarely at that. Unless of course the other person lacked the skills to respond, in that case I would tell my fighter to just get ahead in the score, don't hurt the guy and run out the clock, save it for the next match.

yes, the time when you see spin hook kicks used offensively is perhaps at the start of the match, when one side, which is usually extremely athletic, comes out with it, generally in combination with some other kick, like narabang/dolge chagi (360 roundhouse kick), and the jump spin hook finale. Sometimes using the element of surprise, it can work. Also you see it used offensively if there is a great disparity in ability between two contestants. If I were on the superior skill side, I would tell my guy to go ahead and knock the opponent out as quickly as possible if they can, especially if it is in a national team track bracket. This conserves energy and also serves as a warning to that competitor and others that they should be extra careful if they fight my guy. That slight hesitation is often the difference in winning a match, which can happen if you are a witness or victim of a spin hook kick knockout. It sets the tone and send the message that it's a long way to the top if you want to rock and roll.

Sometimes getting knocked out by a spin hook kick can serve as a wake up call. There was a local fighter in California who entered GM Jay Warwick's Challenge Cup up in Sacramento. The OTC team flew out to compete at that event, including one of my students from white belt. My guy ended up knocking out the local champion with a spin hook kick, to the horror of the competitor's parents, who are also taekwondo instructors. The local champion, instead of quitting, thought long and hard about whether he wanted to fool around at local tournaments or kick it up and notch and really shoot for a national team spot. Well, he went for it and ended up being a multi time national team member, a medalist at several WTF international events, and went on to become quite a skilled coach in his own right.

So like everything else in life, what happens to you after you take a shot that knocks you down, is completely up to you.

 

[Cyriacus]

Thanks for all the info everyone. Makes for interesting reading, especially looking at spin hook as a counter/defensive kick which is a new way of looking at it for me.

Blue Attacks
Red Instantly Defends
Case in point

If Red had used it, Blue wouldnt have been caught midmotion.

I.e., Heres an example for a 5 second google!

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I suppose you can also attack with it if the other guy just stands there doing nothing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mfj0e7--WL4&feature=related

 

[andyjeffries]

Blue Attacks
Red Instantly Defends
Case in point

If Red had used it, Blue wouldnt have been caught midmotion.

I.e., Heres an example for a 5 second google!

You could tell from red's bouncing he was so blatantly looking for that. Good job still, but blue should have had a hint from his movement...

 

[Cyriacus]

You could tell from red's bouncing he was so blatantly looking for that. Good job still, but blue should have had a hint from his movement...

Of course - But in theory, theres a block or counter or dodge for every single strike in existance, as well as ways to see them coming, and if You could just flawlessly pull it off every time, Martial Artists would be indestructible against each other, and Matches would go until someone got too tired to even continue.

 

[andyjeffries]

Of course - But in theory, theres a block or counter or dodge for every single strike in existance, as well as ways to see them coming, and if You could just flawlessly pull it off every time, Martial Artists would be indestructible against each other, and Matches would go until someone got too tired to even continue.

Just saying that it would have been a good opportunity to see it come and attack with a cut kick rather than give him the opening he wanted...

 

[Cyriacus]

Just saying that it would have been a good opportunity to see it come and attack with a cut kick rather than give him the opening he wanted...

Of course - Im just saying that the same could be said of any time someone gets taken out by a strike like that.

 

[Gorilla]

I suppose you can also attack with it if the other guy just stands there doing nothing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mfj0e7--WL4&feature=related

You could lead with it against a guy who has never seen it coming. Which is probably the case in this kick boxing match. In a high end Tkd Match probably not the best choice to say the least. The perspective that I am coming from is the high end match because that is the level we are fighting at. If we fought a local tournament which we do to support our local school and our previous school we do not throw that kick against the local level players. This is usualy at the request of the tournament director. We don't take it easy per se but we don't go for a KO either. We would not want to discourage tournament play at the local level. If a player of equal talent shows up all bets are off.

 

[mastercole]

You could lead with it against a guy who has never seen it coming. Which is probably the case in this kick boxing match. In a high end Tkd Match probably not the best choice to say the least. The perspective that I am coming from is the high end match because that is the level we are fighting at. If we fought a local tournament which we do to support our local school and our previous school we do not throw that kick against the local level players. This is usualy at the request of the tournament director. We don't take it easy per se but we don't go for a KO either. We would not want to discourage tournament play at the local level. If a player of equal talent shows up all bets are off.

This is an excellent point.

 

[Buka]

Would you mind summarizing what a California Blitz is for those of us not familiar with the term?

I'm not sure if this is linked up properly, the whole video/youtube thing is still a mystery to me. But here's the California Blitz, from back in the day.
Just another piece of footwork, closes distance quickly, and it changes the timing from other steps one might use. With some practice, you can catch a lot of people. And it's kind of fun.

 

[ATC]

I'm not sure if this is linked up properly, the whole video/youtube thing is still a mystery to me. But here's the California Blitz, from back in the day.
Just another piece of footwork, closes distance quickly, and it changes the timing from other steps one might use. With some practice, you can catch a lot of people. And it's kind of fun.

This is a piece of footwork we use with hand techniques. Mostly back fist, lung punch, and reverse punch. You can close the distance rather quickly like you state, and stike with the hands at the same time as you are closing the distance. However this move is countered pretty easy with a side or even a back kick. This footwork action is also not the best to kick from as it is slow for kicking techniques, even the front leg round kick is slower from this footwork vs. a simply back foot slide up front foot lift technique. But it does have it's place.

 

[mastercole]

This is a piece of footwork we use with hand techniques. Mostly back fist, lung punch, and reverse punch. You can close the distance rather quickly like you state, and stike with the hands at the same time as you are closing the distance. However this move is countered pretty easy with a side or even a back kick. This footwork action is also not the best to kick from as it is slow for kicking techniques, even the front leg round kick is slower from this footwork vs. a simply back foot slide up front foot lift technique. But it does have it's place.

Master Greg Baker of Newark, Ohio 1988 Olympic Bronze Medalist used this step. He said it was was handy because it threw off the opponents time and distance judgement.

 

[ATC]

Master Greg Baker of Newark, Ohio 1988 Olympic Bronze Medalist used this step. He said it was was handy because it threw off the opponents time and distance judgement.

Yes maybe, but that was 88. Today they would just step in on you, or simply kick you on your movement. It is an old movement, been around in many systems since before I was born. Many Karate point fighters used this move back in the 70's and 80's. Just like any move, someone will always be caught by it. Every move ever invented or thought of will work at some point or another. It is all about the percentages and the type of sport you are doing.

 

[mastercole]

Yes maybe, but that was 88. Today they would just step in on you, or simply kick you on your movement. It is an old movement, been around in many systems since before I was born. Many Karate point fighters used this move back in the 70's and 80's. Just like any move, someone will always be caught by it. Every move ever invented or thought of will work at some point or another. It is all about the percentages and the type of sport you are doing.

I agree. It's not something any of our fighters would do today.

 

[jks9199]

Yes maybe, but that was 88. Today they would just step in on you, or simply kick you on your movement. It is an old movement, been around in many systems since before I was born. Many Karate point fighters used this move back in the 70's and 80's. Just like any move, someone will always be caught by it. Every move ever invented or thought of will work at some point or another. It is all about the percentages and the type of sport you are doing.

It's sometimes called a trigger step. It still can be a very effective stepping technique to support striking, used as part of a strategy. I can't say whether it'd work in Olympic style sparring since I've never done that.