The Mother of all Postures?

[Telfer]

So whats with the horse stance...was it ever a part of actual combat, or just an isometric strength exercise?

Please share you thoughts on Sifu Philip Starr's interpretation:

http://www.martialedge.net/articles/techniques-and-tutorials/the-story-of-a-horse-stance/

[FONT=tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Ah, the horse-riding stance. Everyone's favorite. The most basic stance of all...and probably the most misunderstood stance of the lot. [/FONT]
[FONT=tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]
[/FONT][FONT=tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]The horse-riding stance is used in almost every form of kung fu and karate. Its height and width vary from one style to another but one thing is certain; it's the most fundamental stance of all, the "mother" of the other stances. And since it's often the first stance learned by the beginning student, it tends to be the most neglected. [/FONT]

(Post edited to comply with copyright policy.)

[FONT=tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Other Functions [/FONT]
[FONT=tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]This is where the real value of the ma lies. In the old days students were made to stand in the ma for extended periods of time. This tedious and painful training routine actually has several very important functions: [/FONT]
[FONT=tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]
[/FONT][FONT=tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]1. It strengthens and toughens the legs, ankles, and hips; a crucial factor in being able to generate real striking power. [/FONT]
[FONT=tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]
[/FONT][FONT=tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]2. It teaches you how to stand in the ma properly. If you're tilted or otherwise standing incorrectly certain muscles, usually the quadriceps muscles on the fronts of the thighs, have to work extra hard to keep you upright. As your upper body is unstable, the quads and other muscles of the legs and hips are constantly contracting to various degrees to compensate for your upper body positioning and the legs become fatigued very quickly. When they get really fatigued, they get angry and create lots of pain... [/FONT]
[FONT=tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]
[/FONT][FONT=tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]3. If you concentrate on proper breathing, the chi (intrinsic energy) will eventually sink to the dantien. This has always been heavily stressed in martial arts training. Most people walk around with the chi up high in the chest. That's one reason they're so unstable. [/FONT]
[FONT=tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]
[/FONT][FONT=tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]People who have jobs that require a lot of mental work often get too much chi stuck in the head, which can cause headaches. When the chi is raised up high, the breathing naturally tends to be high and shallow as well. [/FONT]
[FONT=tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]
[/FONT][FONT=tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Standing in the ma helps to lower the chi and breath down to the lower abdomen. This has a calming effect that also promotes the development of internal and external strength. [/FONT]
[FONT=tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]
[/FONT][FONT=tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]4. Standing in the ma has long been recommended in martial arts circles as a form of healing exercise. It has positive effects on the circulation, respiration, and overall functions of the viscera. When students began to feel ill, teachers would often have them stand in the ma. [/FONT]
[FONT=tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]
[/FONT][FONT=tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]In days gone by, teachers would sometimes test an applicant's resolve by having them stand in the ma for a long time. If the prospective student stood up, he failed the test and the teacher wouldn't accept him. In ma training it's acceptable if you fall down but you must never stand up because that shows weak spirit. I tell my students that it's alright if they fall down (so long as they get back up and start again) because that just means that they have weak legs and we can fix that. If they stand up, they have a weak spirit...and that’s a lot tougher to fix. [/FONT]
[FONT=tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]
[/FONT][FONT=tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Nowadays, most martial arts students don't do much ma training. They want to hurry and get to the more exciting parts of practice. They fail to understand the importance of this simple stance and many teachers, worrying about losing students (and consequently, income), allow them to just brush over this important aspect of training. It's too bad. It's one of the great secrets of martial arts. [/FONT]
[FONT=tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]
[/FONT][FONT=tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]It's been said that if you really want to hide something valuable, hide it in plain sight. Thus, the ma. [/FONT]

 

[Xue Sheng]

So whats with the horse stance...was it ever a part of actual combat, or just an isometric strength exercise?

It is more than an isometric exercise... as is all stance training in CMA

but to Philip Starr's interpretation... well I only agree with 1 though 4

[FONT=tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Other Functions [/FONT]
[FONT=tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]This is where the real value of the ma lies. In the old days students were made to stand in the ma for extended periods of time. This tedious and painful training routine actually has several very important functions: [/FONT]


[FONT=tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]1. It strengthens and toughens the legs, ankles, and hips; a crucial factor in being able to generate real striking power. [/FONT]


[FONT=tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]2. It teaches you how to stand in the ma properly. If you're tilted or otherwise standing incorrectly certain muscles, usually the quadriceps muscles on the fronts of the thighs, have to work extra hard to keep you upright. As your upper body is unstable, the quads and other muscles of the legs and hips are constantly contracting to various degrees to compensate for your upper body positioning and the legs become fatigued very quickly. When they get really fatigued, they get angry and create lots of pain... [/FONT]


[FONT=tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]3. If you concentrate on proper breathing, the chi (intrinsic energy) will eventually sink to the dantien. This has always been heavily stressed in martial arts training. Most people walk around with the chi up high in the chest. That's one reason they're so unstable. [/FONT]


[FONT=tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]People who have jobs that require a lot of mental work often get too much chi stuck in the head, which can cause headaches. When the chi is raised up high, the breathing naturally tends to be high and shallow as well. [/FONT]


[FONT=tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Standing in the ma helps to lower the chi and breath down to the lower abdomen. This has a calming effect that also promotes the development of internal and external strength. [/FONT]


[FONT=tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]4. Standing in the ma has long been recommended in martial arts circles as a form of healing exercise. It has positive effects on the circulation, respiration, and overall functions of the viscera. When students began to feel ill, teachers would often have them stand in the ma. [/FONT]


[FONT=tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]In days gone by, teachers would sometimes test an applicant's resolve by having them stand in the ma for a long time. If the prospective student stood up, he failed the test and the teacher wouldn't accept him. In ma training it's acceptable if you fall down but you must never stand up because that shows weak spirit. I tell my students that it's alright if they fall down (so long as they get back up and start again) because that just means that they have weak legs and we can fix that. If they stand up, they have a weak spirit...and that’s a lot tougher to fix. [/FONT]


[FONT=tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Nowadays, most martial arts students don't do much ma training. They want to hurry and get to the more exciting parts of practice. They fail to understand the importance of this simple stance and many teachers, worrying about losing students (and consequently, income), allow them to just brush over this important aspect of training. It's too bad. It's one of the great secrets of martial arts. [/FONT]


[FONT=tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]It's been said that if you really want to hide something valuable, hide it in plain sight. Thus, the ma. [/FONT]

Oh and all the stuff before that as well.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I also feel that the following needs to emphasize because it is very VERY true and needs to be posted all by itself so it is not lost in another post

[FONT=tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Nowadays, most martial arts students don't do much ma training. They want to hurry and get to the more exciting parts of practice. They fail to understand the importance of this simple stance and many teachers, worrying about losing students (and consequently, income), allow them to just brush over this important aspect of training. It's too bad. It's one of the great secrets of martial arts. [/FONT]

[FONT=tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif] [/FONT]

 

[Nolerama]

Train fundamentals.

 

[Telfer]

I also feel that the following needs to emphasize because it is very VERY true and needs to be posted all by itself so it is not lost in another post

Do you agree with the idea that its NOT a combat stance...but rather an exercise.

 

[K-man]

Do you agree with the idea that its NOT a combat stance...but rather an exercise.

In context, it is a very powerful combat stance, in close range, particularly against a taller opponent. Obviously standing that way in front of your opponent is an open invitation to 'ring your bells' and would never happen.
As an exercise it has many benefits in strengthening the legs etc.
I happen to believe that nothing in kata is without its use. You must look for the practical application. :asian:

 

[seasoned]

Do you agree with the idea that its NOT a combat stance...but rather an exercise.

In context, it is a very powerful combat stance, in close range, particularly against a taller opponent. Obviously standing that way in front of your opponent is an open invitation to 'ring your bells' and would never happen.
As an exercise it has many benefits in strengthening the legs etc.
I happen to believe that nothing in kata is without its use. You must look for the practical application. :asian:

It is very much a combat stance, and, a very powerful exercise for practice. In practice this stance was used as a mental gage. One of our black belt requirements was a 5 mile run and 30 minutes in the Kiba Dachi for good measure. It is in many of the GoJu kata, and as K-man mentioned, it is used in close quarter combat as well. To know Kiba Dachi is to recognize it's value, but at first glance it can be dismissed as impractical.

 

[Telfer]

What do you guys make of the practical difference between feet parallel vs. pointed out?

These monks point the feet out 45 degrees or so...but isnt this less stable from the front??? Looks like a Sumo stance!

 

[kingkong89]

''So whats with the horse stance...was it ever a part of actual combat, or just an isometric strength exercise?''

YES IT IS SOMEWHAT AN EXERCISE THAT MAKES OUR LEGS STRONGER BUT YES AT ONE TIME IT WAS USED VERY FREQUENTLY IN COMBAT, DURING THE DAYS OF THE SAMURAI ARCHERS RODE ON HORSEBACK, THEY COULDNOT STAY SEATED ON THE SADLE SO THE STOOD IN THE SADDLE FORMING A STANCE THIS IS WHERE WE GET THE TERM HORSE OR HORSE RIDING STNCE

 

[seasoned]

''So whats with the horse stance...was it ever a part of actual combat, or just an isometric strength exercise?''

YES IT IS SOMEWHAT AN EXERCISE THAT MAKES OUR LEGS STRONGER BUT YES AT ONE TIME IT WAS USED VERY FREQUENTLY IN COMBAT, DURING THE DAYS OF THE SAMURAI ARCHERS RODE ON HORSEBACK, THEY COULDNOT STAY SEATED ON THE SADLE SO THE STOOD IN THE SADDLE FORMING A STANCE THIS IS WHERE WE GET THE TERM HORSE OR HORSE RIDING STNCE

And then it was so well received from horse back that it was placed into many feet on the ground kata. Kiba Dachi and Shiko Dachi has evolved.
:asian:

 

[K-man]

What do you guys make of the practical difference between feet parallel vs. pointed out?

These monks point the feet out 45 degrees or so...but isnt this less stable from the front??? Looks like a Sumo stance!

I would maintain that these are two different stances. Shiko dachi is lower stance with feet turned out 45 deg. Uchi Hachi dachi, in Goju, is a wider than shoulder width stance with feet parallel and legs straight. We call this Kiba dachi or horse riding stance. What I have seen many, many times is total confusion between the two.
If you have ever ridden a horse, except when using spurs or guiding with a heel, you would know that you grip with pressure from your knees. This means that your feet are parallel, not stuck out on an angle. If you are standing to fire an arrow, as KK89 suggested, your legs will be straight and, again, you will be steadying yourself with your knees.
As to the angle producing less stability from the front, it is not a frontal stance, but one that you would use to get in under your opponent's guard, either straight in or on an angle depending on the situation. As I said in the previous post, if you used this stance in front of your opponent it would be an open invitation to ring your bells. You would probably be carrying your testicles in your mouth!! :asian:

 

[Telfer]

As to the angle producing less stability from the front, it is not a frontal stance, but one that you would use to get in under your opponent's guard...

Ok, but the monks in the clip are punching forward...as if their opponent is directly in front.

Do you mean they are sinking low to ring bells with their fists?

 

[K-man]

Ok, but the monks in the clip are punching forward...as if their opponent is directly in front.

Do you mean they are sinking low to ring bells with their fists?

In this instance it is purely a training posture to strengthen the thigh muscles. Additional training is being undertaken at the same time.
In practice, yes. Stepping in in a lower stance to strike tettsui to the groin would be a common application, but not in the frontal position demonstrated in the video clip. You would be stepping in on an angle utilising the weight of your body to add power to your strike. From that situation you are then in position to turn your body to effect a hip throw etc. Shiko dachi can also be used in the opposite direction to pull your opponent off balance. In the Goju kata shiko dachi is always performed at 45 deg or 90 deg angle, sometimes forward, sometimes back, depending on the technique associated with it. :asian:

 

[jks9199]

There are combative applications to this stance, though they are seldom in the straight forward alignment shown.

It's also a very practical stance for learning certain movements and principles. I often liken it to the elementary school paper with two solid lines, and a dashed line to indicate the proper height for upper case and lower case letters; it's a very controlled, idealized stance to learn shifts and basic principles.

 

[MJS]

Aside from the things already listed, that're gained from the stance, ie: building strength in the legs, I feel that all stances have their purpose. I think that many times, when people hear the word "stance", that people assume that it means something thats static. However, that can't be any further from the truth. Anytime we execute a technique, we're getting into some sort of stance, even if just for a short moment in time, however, its a stance, nonetheless.

IMO, stances are momentary things, that change with whats happening at the moment. Stances and footwork go hand in hand.

 

[hkfuie]

Aside from the things already listed, that're gained from the stance, ie: building strength in the legs, I feel that all stances have their purpose. I think that many times, when people hear the word "stance", that people assume that it means something thats static. However, that can't be any further from the truth. Anytime we execute a technique, we're getting into some sort of stance, even if just for a short moment in time, however, its a stance, nonetheless.

IMO, stances are momentary things, that change with whats happening at the moment. Stances and footwork go hand in hand.

Agreed. Many people practice punches in a way that is static (I do). But no one would ever suggest you use the punch in sparring or self-defense and keep that arm hanging out there. Same with blocks. I agree that although stances are practiced in a static way, they are not used in a static way.

BTW, the KF I did used the horse stance as the main stance for sparring and they called it "fighting stance." But now that I think about it, it did differ from horse stance in that we shifted our weight to have more weight on the back leg.

I liked the article. Thanks for posting it here.

 

[MJS]

Agreed. Many people practice punches in a way that is static (I do). But no one would ever suggest you use the punch in sparring or self-defense and keep that arm hanging out there. Same with blocks. I agree that although stances are practiced in a static way, they are not used in a static way.

BTW, the KF I did used the horse stance as the main stance for sparring and they called it "fighting stance." But now that I think about it, it did differ from horse stance in that we shifted our weight to have more weight on the back leg.

I liked the article. Thanks for posting it here.

When first teaching the basics, ie: punches, kicks, blocks, etc., I was taught and still teach from the static horse. However, I make it clear to people that in a confrontation, this will not be static.

IMO, we need to have some sort of base to build from. Kinda goes back to the walking before running idea. People need to grasp the proper way to do those things before adding in movement.

 

[seasoned]

So whats with the horse stance...was it ever a part of actual combat, or just an isometric strength exercise?

Please share you thoughts on Sifu Philip Starr's interpretation:

http://www.martialedge.net/articles/techniques-and-tutorials/the-story-of-a-horse-stance/

[FONT=tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Ah, the horse-riding stance. Everyone's favorite. The most basic stance of all...and probably the most misunderstood stance of the lot. [/FONT]

[FONT=tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]The horse-riding stance is used in almost every form of kung fu and karate. Its height and width vary from one style to another but one thing is certain; it's the most fundamental stance of all, the "mother" of the other stances. And since it's often the first stance learned by the beginning student, it tends to be the most neglected. [/FONT]

(Post edited to comply with copyright policy.)

[FONT=tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Other Functions [/FONT]
[FONT=tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]This is where the real value of the ma lies. In the old days students were made to stand in the ma for extended periods of time. This tedious and painful training routine actually has several very important functions: [/FONT]

[FONT=tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]1. It strengthens and toughens the legs, ankles, and hips; a crucial factor in being able to generate real striking power. [/FONT]

[FONT=tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]2. It teaches you how to stand in the ma properly. If you're tilted or otherwise standing incorrectly certain muscles, usually the quadriceps muscles on the fronts of the thighs, have to work extra hard to keep you upright. As your upper body is unstable, the quads and other muscles of the legs and hips are constantly contracting to various degrees to compensate for your upper body positioning and the legs become fatigued very quickly. When they get really fatigued, they get angry and create lots of pain... [/FONT]

[FONT=tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]3. If you concentrate on proper breathing, the chi (intrinsic energy) will eventually sink to the dantien. This has always been heavily stressed in martial arts training. Most people walk around with the chi up high in the chest. That's one reason they're so unstable. [/FONT]

[FONT=tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]People who have jobs that require a lot of mental work often get too much chi stuck in the head, which can cause headaches. When the chi is raised up high, the breathing naturally tends to be high and shallow as well. [/FONT]

[FONT=tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Standing in the ma helps to lower the chi and breath down to the lower abdomen. This has a calming effect that also promotes the development of internal and external strength. [/FONT]

[FONT=tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]4. Standing in the ma has long been recommended in martial arts circles as a form of healing exercise. It has positive effects on the circulation, respiration, and overall functions of the viscera. When students began to feel ill, teachers would often have them stand in the ma. [/FONT]

[FONT=tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]In days gone by, teachers would sometimes test an applicant's resolve by having them stand in the ma for a long time. If the prospective student stood up, he failed the test and the teacher wouldn't accept him. In ma training it's acceptable if you fall down but you must never stand up because that shows weak spirit. I tell my students that it's alright if they fall down (so long as they get back up and start again) because that just means that they have weak legs and we can fix that. If they stand up, they have a weak spirit...and that’s a lot tougher to fix. [/FONT]

[FONT=tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Nowadays, most martial arts students don't do much ma training. They want to hurry and get to the more exciting parts of practice. They fail to understand the importance of this simple stance and many teachers, worrying about losing students (and consequently, income), allow them to just brush over this important aspect of training. It's too bad. It's one of the great secrets of martial arts. [/FONT]

[FONT=tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]It's been said that if you really want to hide something valuable, hide it in plain sight. Thus, the ma. [/FONT]

I agree with most of the above. In older days this stance was favored for many reasons. But, because it held no visible value in a sparring situation it stayed within the kata, to work it's magic. As an entry move, this stance enables the user to advance forward very quickly, deep into the opponents rooted stance disrupting their positioning. When used, as in Sei-Enchin kata, it is a devastating close-in attack. "Grab, upper cut, back fist, hammer fist to the groin, with a take down. :asian:

 

[seasoned]

I agree with most of the above. In older days this stance was favored for many reasons. But, because it held no visible value in a sparring situation it stayed within the kata, to work it's magic. As an entry move, this stance enables the user to advance forward very quickly, deep into the opponents rooted stance disrupting their positioning. When used, as in Sei-Enchin kata, it is a devastating close-in attack. "Grab, upper cut, back fist, hammer fist to the groin, with a take down. :asian:

I am of course referring to the lower Shiko Dachi as opposed to the much higher Kiba Dachi, which is a Major difference in the two.

 

[Telfer]

Just to complicate matters even more I went digging through my MA mags last night and found a very long interview with Shaolin monk Shi Xing Hao who wanted to respond to all the internet criticism of the carnival show atmosphere unfolding at the main Temple in China.

He says there are now two sides to the Shaolin tradition, the internal fighting arts and the external Wushu displayed for tourists.

"There is no need to keep them too separate, and yet you cant allow them to be too close."

He demonstrated in pictures exactly what the difference is between the Wushu Horse and Arrow stance for the public...and the real stances as they are practiced in private.

Unlike the monks in the clip I posted he keeps his feet parallel for both styles.