Stance training.

Xue Sheng

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For many years I have felt that stance training was very important to martial arts....all martial arts, and if you go back 50 years to China and Japan you could still find a lot of schools that made the beginners hold a stance for 2 hours or more before they started any other training. Go back further and you will find students having to stand in a horse stance (for example) all day everyday for a year or more before they ever are trained to throw a punch or a kick. Most unfortunatley today many styles have forgotten this aspect of martial arts training.

I have done stance training in the past and I have always found it beneficial. I stopped doing stance training, for multiple reasons, a few years ago. I started doing Tai Chi Chuan stance training again recently but since I have returned to Xingyi and started "san ti" training and I have found that my tai chi has gotten much better along with my Xingyi.

To see a picture of what I am talking about go to

http://www.geocities.com/eyesac2/mastersphotos.html

and look for the picture of Jin Yun Ding in San Ti

San ti is basic Xingyi stance training, and this is just one variation; Stand with 100% to 80% of your weight on your back leg for 3 to 5 minutes switch legs and repeat this for 3 to 5 rounds. get to 20 minutes per side and you’re a Xingyi beginner.

I am currently only up to about 9 to 12 minutes per side at 100%. My current teacher's teacher required 45 minutes per side, there may have been no switching until 45 minutes was up.

The power that you can gain in your forms and applications from something as simple as stance training is amazing. And you can pick any stance in the style that you do and practice it this way. This also gives you the benefit of time to analyze the stance and make the necessary little changes needed.

Admittedly it is not as exciting as throwing the perfect roundhouse, doing push hands or training strikes, but I feel it is the base of most martial arts training, the root if you will, that I feel is very often overlooked in martial arts today.

But, then again, this could just be my background talking….. CMA people are always concerned about rooting.
 

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Xue Sheng said:
For many years I have felt that stance training was very important to martial arts....all martial arts, and if you go back 50 years to China and Japan you could still find a lot of schools that made the beginners hold a stance for 2 hours or more before they started any other training. Go back further and you will find students having to stand in a horse stance (for example) all day everyday for a year or more before they ever are trained to throw a punch or a kick. Most unfortunatley today many styles have forgotten this aspect of martial arts training.

How much of "holding a stance for 2 hours" or "standing in a horse stance for a year" has to do with building proper fundamentals and how much of it has to do with weeding out the people who don't have the dedication to train? At some point standing in one place doesn't teach you diddly and it becomes a muscle endurance issue. If I want to build leg endurance and strength, I've got better exercises. That being said, I completely agree about stances and footwork being underemphasized in many martial arts, particularly the commercial schools. I prefer drills where we emphasize transitions between proper stances, after all, most stances are transitionary rather than static.

Lamont
 

celtic_crippler

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Blindside said:
How much of "holding a stance for 2 hours" or "standing in a horse stance for a year" has to do with building proper fundamentals and how much of it has to do with weeding out the people who don't have the dedication to train? At some point standing in one place doesn't teach you diddly and it becomes a muscle endurance issue. If I want to build leg endurance and strength, I've got better exercises. That being said, I completely agree about stances and footwork being underemphasized in many martial arts, particularly the commercial schools. I prefer drills where we emphasize transitions between proper stances, after all, most stances are transitionary rather than static.

Lamont

I with you on this.
 

still learning

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Hello, Stance training is not so popular today. In the older traditional schools there is alot of horse stance training, or deep stances.

You do develop a strong foundation, almost inmovable. In my shotakan classes the Sensi would make us do all our techniques in the deep stances, hurts after awhile. As the months progress...you legs get very strong.

Your center also feel more solid. Today alot of the martial arts only train for 1-2 hours per night and must cover alot of different materials. Stance training becomes only minutes...many times.

Very few people train like in the old days...many of us are unware of this type of stance training....of past.......Thank-you for bringing it up...Aloha
 

celtic_crippler

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still learning said:
Hello, Stance training is not so popular today. In the older traditional schools there is alot of horse stance training, or deep stances.

You do develop a strong foundation, almost inmovable. In my shotakan classes the Sensi would make us do all our techniques in the deep stances, hurts after awhile. As the months progress...you legs get very strong.

Your center also feel more solid. Today alot of the martial arts only train for 1-2 hours per night and must cover alot of different materials. Stance training becomes only minutes...many times.

Very few people train like in the old days...many of us are unware of this type of stance training....of past.......Thank-you for bringing it up...Aloha

...... what about mobility?
 

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I remember this type of training back in the day. Mobility wasn't the focus. It was about strenghtening the foundation. True, from those deep stances you wouldn't have mobility. But, the strength gained would give you explosive power when executed for real. This would also make your mobility faster.
 

still learning

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Hello, The purpose of stance training was to build a powerful legs. This is only a training tool use in the old days. (some schools still practice this)

Those with this type of training(horse stance)..have a solid foundation when in use.

Anytime you can drop your center an inch or more down...you become harder to move and your attacks more powerful...try it. ....Aloha

Many training methods of the old days...have change because we learn certain things do not work so well for today...Some still do work....Aloha
 

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having a strong base is SO important! whenever i cross arms with my sifu he always feels totally immovable, whereas im like putty in his hands and he can throw me about all over the place. i asked him once about this and he just pointed to his thighs and said 'its all about down here'
 
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Xue Sheng

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celtic_crippler said:
...... what about mobility?

Once again, sorry I am late, I’ve been away.

You gain a lot of mobility from a proper foundation and stance training gives you that foundation. You would be amazed at how much mobility you gain in something like Xingyi or Tai Chi from stance training.

And to answer another post. I agree it is a weed out process and yes it does show who is dedicated enough to learn the art. And if your goal is to keep the art real you need dedication. Look what happens to and MA when people that are not dedicated to anything but making a buck start teaching..... You too can earn a black belt in a year guaranteed..... Be a Grand Master for $700 in your spare time at home........

Now, I do not feel that Stance training is all you need. Depending on what you goals are you may need a lot more. If you are going to fight San Shou or MMA you need to run, lift and train train train well beyond stance training.

I just feel that in today’s world stance training is very much forgotten and this is not because things can be done better in a different way I feel it is because it is hard to do, takes a long time and it is boring and some simply do not have the time and others go for the path of least resistance.

Of course I could also feel this way because I am a dinosaur :)

But when is the last time you heard stance training mentioned with Tai Chi?
 

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  1. Stance just the word freezes the motion. Stance should be looked at a fluid motion postion. But remember stance also was developed as to the type of ground you were on hilly ground lower stances level ground higher stance. Yes getting into a low stance and hold does add strength to your legs over time. You would never fight long in that postion only a moment in time. ! solid position / stance that you feel you can defend well out of should be your base line fighting position. any thing else is a fluid positon that was used to deliver or defend with at that given time then back to your main position if action dictates it. Yes strong stance comes from training and training. Many of the old day training routines had some sort of merit. disipline, condition training, But stances adapted as the art changed to different countries It had to to meet the needs of the land and the people. But gone are the days where you have to really fight for your life often. and the sword is not the weapon of choice much less most M/A weapons The old gun done away with that. M/A today qwould be better used for the some time fight you may get into. or a way to stay in shape. Hand to hand combat training relates to real . But you will find TMA schools that still put a course of training on strong stance But stance is just that moment in time. dwell to much on it other then just a position Each has there thoughts And That means what it does to them.
 

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I think stance training is very important. It is your foundation and like anything you build or knowledge you gain, you need a solid foundation. Strong roots is what makes a strong tree.
What is the point of being fluid if you dont have a good foundation in stances?

For example look at wu shu today. With modern Wu Shu, stance traning may not be emphasized because they want to be more FLUID. Most people would not know they hey some of those stances could be better if they would have had kung fu training / strong emphasis on stances.

I look at it like everything else in life. You need the basics to survive.
 

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Xue Sheng said:
For many years I have felt that stance training was very important to martial arts....all martial arts, and if you go back 50 years to China and Japan you could still find a lot of schools that made the beginners hold a stance for 2 hours or more before they started any other training. Go back further and you will find students having to stand in a horse stance (for example) all day everyday for a year or more before they ever are trained to throw a punch or a kick. Most unfortunatley today many styles have forgotten this aspect of martial arts training.

I have done stance training in the past and I have always found it beneficial. I stopped doing stance training, for multiple reasons, a few years ago. I started doing Tai Chi Chuan stance training again recently but since I have returned to Xingyi and started "san ti" training and I have found that my tai chi has gotten much better along with my Xingyi.

To see a picture of what I am talking about go to

http://www.geocities.com/eyesac2/mastersphotos.html

and look for the picture of Jin Yun Ding in San Ti

San ti is basic Xingyi stance training, and this is just one variation; Stand with 100% to 80% of your weight on your back leg for 3 to 5 minutes switch legs and repeat this for 3 to 5 rounds. get to 20 minutes per side and you’re a Xingyi beginner.

I am currently only up to about 9 to 12 minutes per side at 100%. My current teacher's teacher required 45 minutes per side, there may have been no switching until 45 minutes was up.

The power that you can gain in your forms and applications from something as simple as stance training is amazing. And you can pick any stance in the style that you do and practice it this way. This also gives you the benefit of time to analyze the stance and make the necessary little changes needed.

Admittedly it is not as exciting as throwing the perfect roundhouse, doing push hands or training strikes, but I feel it is the base of most martial arts training, the root if you will, that I feel is very often overlooked in martial arts today.

But, then again, this could just be my background talking….. CMA people are always concerned about rooting.

Stance training should continue to keep your old style of training, the new training you are doing now, and transitioning, or flow between stances.

I think its very important to make students sit in a horse stance for some minutes, then tiger riding (or whatever stances you have) and so on...
Then teach them forms that teach flow such as the lovely tan tuis
and finally taichi or in your case the xingyi posture/stance training.
 
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Robert Lee said:

  1. Stance just the word freezes the motion. Stance should be looked at a fluid motion postion. But remember stance also was developed as to the type of ground you were on hilly ground lower stances level ground higher stance. Yes getting into a low stance and hold does add strength to your legs over time. You would never fight long in that postion only a moment in time. ! solid position / stance that you feel you can defend well out of should be your base line fighting position. any thing else is a fluid positon that was used to deliver or defend with at that given time then back to your main position if action dictates it. Yes strong stance comes from training and training. Many of the old day training routines had some sort of merit. disipline, condition training, But stances adapted as the art changed to different countries It had to to meet the needs of the land and the people. But gone are the days where you have to really fight for your life often. and the sword is not the weapon of choice much less most M/A weapons The old gun done away with that. M/A today qwould be better used for the some time fight you may get into. or a way to stay in shape. Hand to hand combat training relates to real . But you will find TMA schools that still put a course of training on strong stance But stance is just that moment in time. dwell to much on it other then just a position Each has there thoughts And That means what it does to them.

You are missing the point and I am not going to argue it.

It is part of the training, not all.
 

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Stances are part of our personal form. Training out of them and feeling the burn is a great conditoning tool for both strength and endurance. However, at some point we must let go of what others have called a snap shot image that we come to at different points in a sequence of motion and realize that its a blur at best. You have to let go of mechanical to truly flow. Stances then become ideas extracted from the actual event, and imparted to students to indicate how they to might achieve balance, strength, and mobility. They are only a part of a larger generalized principle.
Sean
 
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Xue Sheng

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Touch Of Death said:
Stances are part of our personal form. Training out of them and feeling the burn is a great conditoning tool for both strength and endurance. However, at some point we must let go of what others have called a snap shot image that we come to at different points in a sequence of motion and realize that its a blur at best. You have to let go of mechanical to truly flow. Stances then become ideas extracted from the actual event, and imparted to students to indicate how they to might achieve balance, strength, and mobility. They are only a part of a larger generalized principle.
Sean

Agreed.

I look at stance training as similar to core training. However as you advance there can be less of a need to do so much of it. It tends to be a beginner practice that is generally overlooked. Therefore some important basics are missed. But that is not to say it is not good to do from time to time as you advance as a supplement.
 

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Xue Sheng said:
You are missing the point and I am not going to argue it.

It is part of the training, not all.
I understand stance very well Had it drilled to me for many years. But grew away from it in concept. And I understand it is part of certion training. But agin stance is but a moment in a fight As things just keep changeing. If a person wants to train long in stances, fine If you do froms kata and such it helps As long as the person understands stance is not fixed but should be trained for mobilty also. I believe in a strong foundation But I no longer believe in stance but rather see it as a position for a given moment. And i to do not want to argue thats why I said others have there belief basicly.
 
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Robert Lee said:
I understand stance very well Had it drilled to me for many years. But grew away from it in concept. And I understand it is part of certion training. But agin stance is but a moment in a fight As things just keep changeing. If a person wants to train long in stances, fine If you do froms kata and such it helps As long as the person understands stance is not fixed but should be trained for mobilty also. I believe in a strong foundation But I no longer believe in stance but rather see it as a position for a given moment. And i to do not want to argue thats why I said others have there belief basicly.

I posted this just before your post

I look at stance training as similar to core training. However as you advance there can be less of a need to do so much of it. It tends to be a beginner practice that is generally overlooked. Therefore some important basics are missed. But that is not to say it is not good to do from time to time as you advance as a supplement.

And I agree stance training and kata (forms in my case) are static and a fight is not, depending on a kata in a fight will get you hurt.

They are all just training as is lifting weights, push ups sit ups and running. You use them to get stronger and better in your chosen style.

Push hands practice is also static, but it is important for understanding before freestyle push hands (a nice tai chi way of saying sparing).

My concern about stance training is not too stressed to more advanced practitioners. It is my concern that the beginners are not getting it and a stance is the basis for just about everything, the root if you will.

Beginners stay if you show them a punch and a kick and send them into spar. They don't stay if you tell them to hold this stance for 10 or 20 minutes. A punch or a kick without a root has no power, which is what I am trying to say with my emphasis on stance training.

And without the root it is the martial art becomes a dance.

Also I would like to apologize for my earlier response to you it was rude.
 

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