the mentality of training for no belt

[MJS]

I don't train for belts, but I do like the idea of grading. In genbukan, all kyu levels are green, all dan levels black. The idea of grading is nice because genbukan has a fixed curriculum for each grade, and grading is the same across the entire org. Reaching black belt takes 7-10 years (if you train hard enough) so the emphasis is on mastery of the curriculum, not a succession of belt colors.

That said, koryu systems still work without belts or grades (well, kinda) so I guess both approaches work.

While I don't train in any of the kans, I do like what Mr. Tanemura and Manaka, have each, respectively done with the ranking in their systems. While you do wear a green belt, you are still moving to various kyus, so while the belt doesnt change, the rank technically does, even though again, its the same belt color.

Your last paragraph makes alot of sense, and IMO, is what alot of people seem to miss. The emphasis is on mastery of the material, not the belts. Now, given that you said it takes 7-10 yrs to reach black, with alot of dedication, I wonder...do these arts teach kids? I ask this because kids seem to be the bread and butter of alot of schools, thus, why you probably see a bunch of 8yr olds running around with black belts and 12yr olds with 2nd and 3rd degrees. If kids are taught in the Genbukan and Jinenkan, am I safe to assume that its re-enforced that they will need to put in the work and they will not be handed their belts, they'll have to earn it?

 

[Nomad]

That belt tale is a parable.

Obviously, but it's a good parable. As is the flipside, where after many more years of training, the black belt becomes frayed and starts looking white again, going full circle back to the beginning.

 

[dbell]

Obviously, but it's a good parable. As is the flipside, where after many more years of training, the black belt becomes frayed and starts looking white again, going full circle back to the beginning.

But to me, when a black belt starts to get so frayed and faded to white again, I think it is bad form for the person wearing it. Shows no respect to their tools (a belt is a tool from various angles: holds gi shut, used for leverage, and shows position in that style).

When I see a black belt wearing a dirty/frayed belt I tend to snicker and think the person is putting on a show. (Especially the ~25 year olds (or 30 year olds) that I have seen with frayed 3rd Dan and higher belts....)

Assuming that you get a new Dan every say 3-5 years, your belt would be changing each time as well. If you stay at a dan level for 10+ years, get a new belt if it starts to fray and change in color (BEFORE it starts to fray and change color), and put the "old" one on the wall or store it...

 

[suicide]

does jeet kune do have a belt system ?

 

[Omar B]

I'm intrigued by this no belt concept. Are there any arts that are noted for that style? Is it more of an individual teacher thing?

I talked about it before but I'll mention it again. Jae started Hapkido with a training cycle that lasted from 4 to 5 years where basics were stressed the whole time as new concepts were added and built upon, at the end of the training cycle you were a black belt. Some people even stayed and did the cycle twice, some joined late and some left early leading to many strains of Hapkido that though similar were quite different. Look at Hwa Rang Do and Kuk Sool Won, both styles similar, both styles taught by former students of Jae.

 

[BLACK LION]

does jeet kune do have a belt system ?

JKD concepts does not have any belts becuase its not a style or a set system as Bruce originally intended... I am unsure if thier are spawns out there that do but its not keeping with the original concept...

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Hello again Daniel! no worries about arriving late to the thread...good commentary is always appreciated!

With the exception of the unethical schools you mentioned, I agree that belts help you determine who might be a good resource or who you should give some lead room to. I've been fortunate that the folks I've trained with have taken thier belt levels as a "responsibility" as well as an honour.

I agree that it provides structure and highlights resources, but as all schools do not use the same points for advancement...this can also provide confusion and difficulty for the student that moves. I don't have a lot of experience in moving from school to school, but do most schools "test" you to see if you are up to "their" level of x coloured belt?

I agree with Milt's point in his post. I think the belt system has merit, but it also seems to create confusion when comparing school a to school b. Perhaps this is just a consistency problem between schools and organizations. But it is an interesting issue.

I agree, it can be very confusing.

Not only are there differences in arts, but between organizations in the same art. Then to make it worse, between schools of the same organization in the same art.

Then there is the issue of the progression of colors. In TKD, red belt is like a brown belt in Shotokan, while in Shotokan, a red belt is one below yellow, and in Judo, it is higher than a black belt. Then there is the choice of colors; not all schools use the same selection of colors; we do not have a purple or orange belt in our curriculum and certainly not a camo belt. But other schools or systems do have them. Not all schools even use the same number of belts, and some have tape stripes in addition.

About the only consistency seems to be that white is beginner, black is advanced, and green is usually about a third of the way in from beginner.

For the most part, a belt and a rank is really only good within the school. One guy may only give black belts to champion fighters. The guy down the road may give a blackbelt to a severely handicaped student who perservered and worked their tail off and overcame great adversity to get through the curriculum. One teacher is basing his decision on technical skill and competative edge while the other teacher is basing his decision on the student's personal progress and hard work.

Both may be equally valid, but they represent entirely different things.

Interestingly, if you go to a kendo school (ours included), students generally do not wear belts or show rank. Seems to work out just fine.

Personally, I think that the kyu/dan system and the associated belts provide one kind of framework for a teacher to structure the curriculum around. Different teachers may structure the curriculum in a different fashion and dispense with the whole rank thing. Certainly, traditional fencing salles do not use a belt system, nor do sport fencing academies, but they seem to turn out very capable students.

Enjoyable discussion, by the way

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

JKD concepts does not have any belts becuase its not a style or a set system as Bruce originally intended... I am unsure if thier are spawns out there that do but its not keeping with the original concept...

I have not seen any spin offs with belts, but realistically, you could attach a belt system to anything that has a defined skill set. MMA could have belts. So could knitting.

Daniel

 

[Blindside]

I'm intrigued by this no belt concept. Are there any arts that are noted for that style? Is it more of an individual teacher thing?

Pekiti-Tirsia Kali doesn't use any belt system, though there is an identified curriculum for ranking in the US and European organizations, there is no external identifier of that ranking. My instructor didn't use any ranks below the lowest level of "instructor" ranking, we just trained until he said we were ready for it.

 

[Nomad]

But to me, when a black belt starts to get so frayed and faded to white again, I think it is bad form for the person wearing it. Shows no respect to their tools (a belt is a tool from various angles: holds gi shut, used for leverage, and shows position in that style).

When I see a black belt wearing a dirty/frayed belt I tend to snicker and think the person is putting on a show. (Especially the ~25 year olds (or 30 year olds) that I have seen with frayed 3rd Dan and higher belts....)

Assuming that you get a new Dan every say 3-5 years, your belt would be changing each time as well. If you stay at a dan level for 10+ years, get a new belt if it starts to fray and change in color (BEFORE it starts to fray and change color), and put the "old" one on the wall or store it...

This makes sense to me. However, at our school, we don't get new belts with each Dan level, so by the time someone is up for 3rd Dan, their belt can easily be 10 or more years old. Generally, these should be replaced, though I understand the attachment many might have to their first black belt.

We also have a "house belt" which is our lead instructor's first black belt, and which is well over 30 years old (and looking quite frayed and a little fragile for that). Every once in awhile, the house belt will be taken out for a ceremony, or lent to someone to wear for a brief period and is considered an honor which represents the spirit of the dojo. Possibly a silly tradition, but I quite like it.

 

[dbell]

This makes sense to me. However, at our school, we don't get new belts with each Dan level, so by the time someone is up for 3rd Dan, their belt can easily be 10 or more years old. Generally, these should be replaced, though I understand the attachment many might have to their first black belt.

If a school just "tapes" on a strip or sews a new stripe on the belt, that is different of course, but I still say that if the belt starts to get frayed, badly faded, the practitioner is in bad form to not get a new one. By all means keep the "original" one and all after that, as a memory device (although I have lost (via moving, XWife taking by mistake (or on purpose?), etc) most of my original belts up to a point...), but get a new one to replace it when it starts to not be as functional and in proper repair...

We also have a "house belt" which is our lead instructor's first black belt, and which is well over 30 years old (and looking quite frayed and a little fragile for that). Every once in awhile, the house belt will be taken out for a ceremony, or lent to someone to wear for a brief period and is considered an honor which represents the spirit of the dojo. Possibly a silly tradition, but I quite like it.

Not silly by my book anyway!!

 

[still learning]

Hello, Some people need belts or ranks..or want them...many others find it NOT neccessary...

Many are giving ranks...and do not want the promotions too....

It come's down to an individual choice and the systems they are training in! and there beliefs of ranking and belts.

Only you know "how good you gotton" ...only you know your own skill levels.....and on the streets in real fighting...this is where your learning really counts...

It's good to turn "yellow" and run until "red" or "blue"....(escaping should be the number one - technique...

Aloha, ..still learning to run faster...( 2nd level...NO hills)