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Black Belt
what is it that makes these 2 compliment each other so well ?
The Kenpo jujitsu connection
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Kempojujutsu
Master Black Belt
There not two seperate arts, being taught. It has always been one complete art.
Doc
Senior Master
Of course now in our modern times, it depend upon the kind of jiujitsu being incorporated. However, traditionally since the inception of the martial arts, the "jiujitsu" or Chin na component has always existed. Only in the migration of the arts have many of its components been isolated for "nationalistic identity style preferences," creating as my teacher used to say, many "partial arts."
yorkshirelad
Master Black Belt
Kenpo has always incorporated JuJutsu into its arsenal. Just look at the influence of the Hawaiian islands on Kenpo as we know it in America. Masters of Danzan ryu, Lima Lama, Lua and Arnis were extremely influential on Kenpo in its formative years. The 1970s to 90s saw the emergence of commercial kenpo, which predominantly focussed on the striking aspects of Kenpo. I wondered for quite some time why the Nage-waza/Ne-waza wasn't taught in most commercial kenpo schools as Mr Parker had knowledge of Judo. I could be wrong but I came up with a hypothesis. In commercial kenpo space is an issue, you want to keep your school overheads low and if you're paying rent by the square foot it can get expensive. You have to allow each pair of students more room to move when practising throwing arts, so by concetrating on striking, you can fit more students in your studio space. Many students in a small area equals more profits. This is just my reasoning however, but as Mr Parker was a genius in business as well as martial arts, I'm sure this crossed his mind.
Kenpo and JuJutsu have always be taught side by side and most of the time are two sides of the same coin.
Kenpo and JuJutsu have always be taught side by side and most of the time are two sides of the same coin.
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Doc
Senior Master
While everything you say is true, the overwhelming factors were even more basic. Manipulation skills are not easy, nor are there very many competent teachers who can teach it on a mass marketing level. Any kid can walk a person through a striking routine, (no matter competent, or not), but base level manipulations have to be shown to actually work over hypothetical strikes, and the commercial system never had the manpower to teach it sir.
Add to that the discomfort of functioning joint locks and throws, and you turn away a significant amount of business. Also the necessity of having special flooring and mats, were also a factor. Commercial Kenpo can be taught on any surface, but throwing, grappling, and ground explorations demand special flooring. All in all, it was never conducive to business.
yorkshirelad
Master Black Belt
Doc, your logic makes alot more sense than my previous post. I didn't take into account that various JuJutsu kihon waza could be taught without the necessity to throw, but because of their nature, they create extreme pain for the uke. In such cases little space is needed, but the discomfort of the student would cause business to suffer.
While we are on the subject, I viewed a couple of u-tube videos posted by you and noticed that you were using filipino hubud as a drill. I know that control manipulation is taught indepth in SL-4. Were these aspects taught to you by Mr Parker, or did you recieve them from your Danzen ryu teachers (control manipulation) and other filipino martial arts teachers (hubud/sensitivity drills).
Surely it could be stated that you are teaching an advanced form of Kenpo JuJutsu. To state that you teach SL-4 would suggest that the former three sub levels are being negated. Do you now concentrate entirely on control manipulation and sensitivity drills, or do you teach it along side the standard Kenpo technique syllabus?
Dom
Doc
Senior Master
Sir, you are not the first to call some of the base things we do as a drill from the Filipino Arts. My personal knowledge of these arts is minimal and none physically. What I teach I was taught to me by Mr. Parker, and as he explained to me, the depth of the information would be beyond the Filipino drill. I never heard the term Hubub until a couple of years ago by Brian Duffy of Texas, when he saw me teaching a seminar, and I had no idea what it was at the time. Trust that the depth of information is significant beyond what you see, and partly explained in one of the Youtube videos I did to explain some of its concepts, relative to nerve activations.
SubLevel Four Kenpo is the opposite of what many have surmised. While Mr. Parker taught me the four ranges, his definitions were slightly different for me, and much more comprehensive.
ALL of the ranges have subcategories, (they are listed in our section on the sister KenpoTalk site), and the fourth distance in the commercial system is labeled "Contact Manipulation."
In SubLevel Kenpo Concepts teachings, the fourth label is "Control Manipulation," with "Contact" being a subcategory. While some have challenged that assertion, they freely admit "Control Manipulation" does exist. So my question to them is always, "If it exists, where is it, if it is not listed in your understanding of the four ranges?"
So to sum up sir, SubLevel Kenpo literally utilizes ALL the ranges, and ALL of its subcategories inclusively.
Doc
Senior Master
Martial Science University
American Kenpo and SubLevel Four Kenpo
Combat Ranges (V-1.2)
By
Ron Chapél, Ph.D.
American Kenpo and SubLevel Four Kenpo
Combat Ranges (V-1.2)
By
Ron Chapél, Ph.D.
I. Distance One:
Out of Reach (no contact)
SubLevel One:
A. Psychology of Confrontation Theory
II. Distance Two:
Within Reach (no contact)
SubLevel Two:
A. Psychology of Confrontation Theory
B. Spatial Distortion Concepts
III. Distance Three:
Contact Penetration (Peripheral Contact)
SubLevel Three:
A. Psychology of Confrontation Theory
B. Spatial Distortion Concepts
C. Contact Manipulation
D. Visual Cortex Disruption
E. Nerve Cavity Strikes
IV. Distance Four:
Control Manipulation (Aural Contact)
SubLevel Four:
A. Psychology of Confrontation
B. Spatial Distortion Concepts
C. Contact Manipulations
D. Visual Cortex Disruption
E. Nerve Cavity activation
F. Energy Disruption Concepts
G. Kenpo Control Manipulation
H. Nerve Cavity Strikes
I. Kenpo Pressure-Point Activations
J. Control Manipulations
Why do the complement each other so well?
It's dead simple.
This is mid-20th century Hawaii we're talking about. People mixed and matched all sorts of things from saimin to pidgin. How could they not do the same thing with fighting? Ju Jitsu was part of the local culture. So people who were interested in fighting had access to it or at least access to getting beat up by people who knew it. So the local product - Kenpo - incorporated and worked around it.
It's dead simple.
This is mid-20th century Hawaii we're talking about. People mixed and matched all sorts of things from saimin to pidgin. How could they not do the same thing with fighting? Ju Jitsu was part of the local culture. So people who were interested in fighting had access to it or at least access to getting beat up by people who knew it. So the local product - Kenpo - incorporated and worked around it.
yorkshirelad
Master Black Belt
Doc,
I'm not going to even pretend that I understand evrything written in the above post. I am more of a visual learner and even then, it takes intense study and time for me to "get it". I've never been known for my academic abilities.
What I do surmise is that SL-4 is a complete martial science unto itself, and a far cry from the "commercial Kenpo" practiced by many. It seems that the art transcends the cultural differences found in most arts and assimilates the logical methods found in all. The "Borg" of martial arts....scary.
Doc
Senior Master
KenpoDave
2nd Black Belt
Taught correctly, they are parts of a bigger whole.
Doc
Senior Master
Absolutely correct sir.
gixxershane
Green Belt
so Doc, what you are saying is people sacrifice the art for the better of THEIR business??? shouldn't it be the other way around??? I am lucky to have found a instructor that teaches the "commercial" system, but is a stickler for all the jiu-jitsu... she was a good friend and brief student of the late Mr.German that helped her pull this aspect out of the kenpo curriculum
Doc
Senior Master
Well, maybe. I don't know what people know or don't know. I can only judge the product based on my knowledge and experience. Most teach what they know I presume, without holding back. In the commercial system, more than likely there is a lot of information they simply don't have, because it was never there and even if they did, it wouldn't be easy to teach, or good for "business." So I just look and see what that tells me. But even that can be misleading. I see stuff on video, and see all the praise some people get, and to me it looks awful and disfunctional. Go figure. To each his own.
our teacher(myself and gixxershane) has a good way of describing why the jiu-jitsu was lost as part of the commercial kenpo system. If you punch someone in the face, whether it is done properly or not, it is still going to hurt. You may break a bone in your hand, or bust your knuckles, but the person on the receiving end is still going to feel it. If you are sitting there playing with someone's wrist trying to get a wrist lock, they're just going to slap you around silly. Of course, she said this much more eloquently than I just did, but the point is, you can teach someone to throw a punch and whether or not they execute is properly, chances are it's still going to hurt. If you teach someone half-assed jiu-jitsu that, you as an instructor have little understanding of, they're never going to be able to apply it properly in a self defense situation, as there is little room for error. I am thankful to have found a teacher who understands the jiu-jitsu, and makes it a point to teach us it properly. Twisted twig is a perfect example where we learn the attack properly, from different angles, and on different planes before learning how to defend against it. I think it is just a case of, what people don't understand they dismiss.
KENPOJOE
Brown Belt
Hi folks!
In regards to the kenpo jujitsu connection: Both Kenpo/Kempo/Chuan Fa/Kwon bop & Jujutsu/Jujitsu/Jiu Jitsu [BTW: I have nver liked the Jiu or jui preface,they don't call it Jiudo or juido, they call it judo!] are technique driven arts,originally neither had forms or kata. Contrary to some belief,
Kenpo has focused on street oriented defenses with no regards to political correctness nor codes of equiquette. What a respectable jujutsu practitioner might never do [strikes to the groin,for example] are fair game for a kempoka or kenpoist. Long before people even knew what karate was, they would refer to kenpo as "kenpo jujutsu" because people knew what jujutsu was at that period in time. Looking at the transititional points of a given technique are the key to going from one given art to the other.
Depending on the particular style/system, the influence of jujutsu/chin na may vary. There are many elements from danzan ryu jujutsu in Ed Parker's American kenpo and I've addressed some of them in some of my youtube videos. GM David German integrated the two arts in his TAI system.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE
KENPOJOE
Brown Belt
Hi folks!
Gixxershane,are you a student of Kim Deacon? I was responsible for bringing GM German to her studio years ago. We filmed the seminar taught there and would like to contact her.
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE
KENPOJOE
Brown Belt
Hi folks!
Dear Darkside,
I think you "struck" upon an important point regarding both arts. I've always called jujitsu the art or "definite maybes" because some people have higher degrees of flexibility, tolerence to pain, as well as other factors that may circumvent a particular jujitsu technique being as effective as it would be to others. By the same token, if a particular given strike during the course of a given kenpo technique for some reason does not have it's desired effect, a kenpoist can convert to jujitsu as well. As I wrote in a previous post, I beleive I've worked with your instructor in the past and have brought GM German to your school.
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE
LawDog
Master Black Belt
True,
Many schools do teach an inferior brand of Ju-jitty & Judo at their schools and within many Kenpo / Kempo systems. This is not a new problem within Kempo / Kenpo but rather an older one. If you don't understand how and why Ju-jitsu & Judo works then you will not be able to blend into an inpacting system properly.
One of the main blending problems is in the footwork, there should be a common one that works well with both the Kempo / Kenpo and the Jujitsu.
All this being said there are many Kempo / Kenpo systems that have done a good job with this blending.
Weather it is "impacting" or "joint locking" ju-jitsu, it is all good stuff when it is blended properly.
Many schools do teach an inferior brand of Ju-jitty & Judo at their schools and within many Kenpo / Kempo systems. This is not a new problem within Kempo / Kenpo but rather an older one. If you don't understand how and why Ju-jitsu & Judo works then you will not be able to blend into an inpacting system properly.
One of the main blending problems is in the footwork, there should be a common one that works well with both the Kempo / Kenpo and the Jujitsu.
All this being said there are many Kempo / Kenpo systems that have done a good job with this blending.
Weather it is "impacting" or "joint locking" ju-jitsu, it is all good stuff when it is blended properly.
