Kenpo Jujitsu? Is this the original art of Kenpo?

[Milt G.]

Don't worry. Just search through the various threads to find out what others think about about Juchnik and others.

One has to seperate out a man from his talents. If you like what he teaches, then enjoy it and train hard.

Hello, Mr. Weston...

I fully agree with the seperation of a man "with his talents". Bruce Juchnik is a wonderfully skilled martial artist. Perhaps the best I have ever seen, overall. (and I have been around a bit) But, maybe not the person you would like to spend much of your time "off the mats" with. This is true of many of the Kenpo seniors, in my opinion.

I think that this sentiment is mirrored by the Kenpo seniors... I am sure that not many of them wish to spend their "off the mat" time with many of us "underlings" either.

Thank you.
Milt G.

 

[Xinglu]

Hello, Mr. Weston...

I fully agree with the seperation of a man "with his talents". Bruce Juchnik is a wonderfully skilled martial artist. Perhaps the best I have ever seen, overall. (and I have been around a bit) But, maybe not the person you would like to spend much of your time "off the mats" with. This is true of many of the Kenpo seniors, in my opinion.

Agreed!

It was also a different time. I have heard countless stories about how Chow had an uncanny ability to talk his way into a fight. That a lot of the early Kenpo guys enjoyed "pressure testing" their arts on the streets in real situations. Ethics seemed lost on a lot of these guys back in the day. Times were also different and poverty can make people do things that other's are all to ready to criticize.

Until I walk a mile in Mitose's shoes (which will never happen, times and people are different now) I cannot judge his character. Furthermore, I don't feel it is my place.

What I can do is look at the quality of Martial Artist that he trained. Chow, IMHO being one of many great martial artists. Clearly Chow saw some validity and potential in what Mitose taught or he wouldn't have "improved" and evolved the art. Kenpo, like any other MA, must continue to evolve and improve in order to stay current.

So I thank Mitose for pointing Chow and others in the direction of the "moon," and I have enjoyed the journey thus far. It's not over either!

Look at what the first generation changed, Chow's art barely resembled Mitoses'. Look at the second generation and how much they changed from chow - Parker, Kuoha.... I mean talk about taking things to whole new levels! I, like most kenpoka, do not believe in "pure breed" MA. We explore and learn and grow with each generation and the art changes respectively. This is good. This doesn't mean that Mitose or any other "less evolved generations" taught junk. It worked for their time!

Where will generations 3 and four take us? Who knows, but I do know I'm excited to see!

 

[mwd0818]

....Where will generations 3 and four take us? Who knows, but I do know I'm excited to see!

And while I don't know the ages of all those who have posted, it is interesting to note that we are probably among the people that will be responsible for that growth. It's a fine line in keeping with tradition, what works, and working on letting Kenpo evolve as a living and breathing art.

 

[miguksaram]

And while I don't know the ages of all those who have posted, it is interesting to note that we are probably among the people that will be responsible for that growth. It's a fine line in keeping with tradition, what works, and working on letting Kenpo evolve as a living and breathing art.

Exactly. I have been in martial arts going on 29 years. That is a life time to some and a drop in a bucket for others. However within those years, I have seen a lot of changes in martial art culture and systems. I have seen evolutions and de-evolution of some arts. I have two sons that are have been dojo babies. I can only imagine what changes they will see as they progress in the arts. Good or bad, it is a ride worth riding.

 

[marlon]

And while I don't know the ages of all those who have posted, it is interesting to note that we are probably among the people that will be responsible for that growth. It's a fine line in keeping with tradition, what works, and working on letting Kenpo evolve as a living and breathing art.

I think you should be right about our generation. But only if there are enough kempo martial art practioners out there willing to fail and be ridiculed and defend thier ideas and train away as many errors as they can. There has to be the honesty with self the honesty that comes from testing ones ideas against resistance physical and verbal and the push for something real, somethng that gives to ones students and to kempo in general instead of simply attempting to ones own... Self legend. I hope many join in this effort

sincerely,
Marlon

 

[Doc]

I think you should be right about our generation. But only if there are enough kempo martial art practioners out there willing to fail and be ridiculed and defend thier ideas and train away as many errors as they can. There has to be the honesty with self the honesty that comes from testing ones ideas against resistance physical and verbal and the push for something real, somethng that gives to ones students and to kempo in general instead of simply attempting to ones own... Self legend. I hope many join in this effort

sincerely,
Marlon

Well said grasshopper. and I might add, keep the cup empty for those who have the tea to share with you.

 

[Xinglu]

Well said grasshopper. and I might add, keep the cup empty for those who have the tea to share with you.

I can't emphasize this enough! Sometimes it is the unlearned amongst us that have the most to teach us. Having one's cup empty and the humility to sit with them can be one of the most enlightening experiences we can have.

 

[Danjo]

Let me cover 2 things, Ist, Bruce ""GAVE" Rick Nelson a karate black belt, Again words without knowledge are noise, Were you there, I was, NOBODY GAVE RICK ANYTHING, For his era Rick was a good black belt, All of our rank requirements were Written out, Rick trained 2 nights a week after class, And as one of Bruce's assistant instructors on occasion I was asked to assist, As a throwing dummy, Heavy bag and twisting/choking dummy, And for this era Rick was pretty good, He passed all his forms and basics tests and entered the inter school tournaments to earn points for his sparring competition, Rick was in good shape and learned very fast, In this era the most important thing for testing were the katas/forms, Rick was not going to make anybody forget Mike Stone or Pat Burleson, But he was a good black belt, Rick trained NOT to be an expert, He saw karate as a fun hobby, Just as he did tennis and trapeze work, Which he also did, And as good self defense training.

2nd. As far as Bruce's training, I st As has been said, His parents were both judo black belt, This is before the era of specialization, the "judo" of the day was the full spectrum of martial arts, Sure the judo man did the throws and falls and ground work that we think of today as judo, PLUS they did atemi waza, Using the hands and feet to strike the nerve centers and pressure points of the opponent, Think karate, Also the holds, Locks, Chokes and escape from holds that was the old style jiu jitsu/aikido, The schools that the tegner's worked from were among the most respected of the day, There were always traveling Japanese black belts coming through, And in that era there was not the same level of little children being jealous of each other, There were MARTIAL ARTISTS sharing with each other, Many of these martial artist of all styles were willing to share and to improve all those who were true martial artists, And 1 last thing, I do know a little something about martial arts fighting, Some of those I've trained with and learned from include, Joe Lewis, Mike Stone (seminars ) Howard Jackson and Howard's boxing trainer Julio Flores, The one thing these men have in commen is there fighters, And while I'm not a great fighter, Nothing I've seen from these men was that different than what I learned from that "fraud" Bruce Tegner, Did they do it better, Hell yes, I knew these men when they were among the best in the world, I started with Bruce in 1959/60 Long after he had retired from competition,
PS, I always hear this garbage that Bruce was the Chris Pisso/ltx of his era, That's bull, When I started training in June 1959 My first course was $29.00 for 12 one hour classes, I then upgraded to 30 classes for 59.00, Once I was allowed to join the judo club it was $10.00 per month or $100.00 per year, And lets talk about being commercial, After class there was at lest a one hour practice time, Watched over by the black and brown belts, Compare that to the schools now where they run you through like cattle, Your 50 minute hour is over, Now get out of the way so the next herd oops class can come through.
Again for those of you having a kenpo discussion I'm sorry to intrude.

But you still never answered the question about whether Tegner trained live with those people who ranked him, or just copied his moves off of an 8mm film.

The Judo atemi etc. is cool, but it's not Karate per se, and certainly wouldn't qualify you for rank in karate.

 

[Milt G.]

Hello,
Why does it slant Bruce Tegner one way, or the other, because he gave Ricky Nelson a black belt?

Ed Parker "sold" Elvis an 8th degree black belt. The same day as Dave Hebler, one of Elvis' teachers at the time, received his 7th degree black belt. That was in 1974.

I am not at all trying to undercut the fact that Elvis was a legitimate black belt. Or Ricky Nelson for that matter. I argee that Elvis did quite a bit for the art, but a bump from 1st to 8th? Interesting?

Oddly, this type of thing happens from time to time and should not be held against the recipient of the ranking. Or perhaps the teacher? All those qualified, have the right to do what they see fit for their art and students, many will say.

More of my two cents.

Thank you,
Milt G.

 

[Twin Fist]

actually, Parker didnt bump Elvis from 1st to 8th

there are tons of pictures of elvis wearing his 5th, 6th and 7th degree belts. Oddly, there are no pics of him hearing his 8th.....

 

[Carol]

There has been plenty of disagreements over Elvis' promotion, too...that continue to this day. Just because Mr. Parker did it doesn't mean everyone nodded and agreed.

 

[jukado1]

From Danjo:
"But you still never answered the question about whether Tegner trained live with those people who ranked him, or just copied his moves off of an 8mm film.

The Judo atemi etc. is cool, but it's not Karate per se, and certainly wouldn't qualify you for rank in karate."

=++++++++++===============++++++++
Since I guess you weren't around in the 60's and have no knowledge of the karate of the day I will TRY to enlighten you, First a punch is a punch and a kick is a kick, See, You've learned something already, (I hope) Most everything as far as rank in karate was kata, 99 % of the black belts of that era were dancers, A lot like today, So your "STYLE" was the forms/Kata's that you did, Bruce knew how to punch, Whether you call it atemi waza or karate the punch is the same, And Bruce was an effective fighter, First he proved it in sport judo, And he was a trainer for teachers of hand to hand combat during the Korean war, OOPS, I mean Korean police action, So for rank testing he just had to know the Shukokai Kata's, There were few karate schools that were real fighting oriented, One was the closed workouts at Ed Parker's, The going into the back ally and doing 100 + push ups on the asphalt, Another school that turned out fighters was Tak Kubota, But most of the martial arts schools were more into turning out Japanese or Chinese then fighters, I have now been around martial arts since 1959 and do have some knowledge of what a martial artist looks like, Bruce was for real,

Once again sorry to change the subject, But I'm getting sick of the unknowing telling how it was.
WORDS WITHOUT KNOWLEDGE ARE NOISE !

 

[Twin Fist]

well, lets put it this way

Both Ed Parker and Al Tracy, who WERE around at the time said tegner was a laughing stock. Doc too for that matter, and he was around then.

i will take thier word for it.

 

[Carol]

From Danjo:
"But you still never answered the question about whether Tegner trained live with those people who ranked him, or just copied his moves off of an 8mm film.

The Judo atemi etc. is cool, but it's not Karate per se, and certainly wouldn't qualify you for rank in karate."

=++++++++++===============++++++++
Since I guess you weren't around in the 60's and have no knowledge of the karate of the day I will TRY to enlighten you, First a punch is a punch and a kick is a kick, See, You've learned something already, (I hope) Most everything as far as rank in karate was kata, 99 % of the black belts of that era were dancers, A lot like today, So your "STYLE" was the forms/Kata's that you did, Bruce knew how to punch, Whether you call it atemi waza or karate the punch is the same, And Bruce was an effective fighter, First he proved it in sport judo, And he was a trainer for teachers of hand to hand combat during the Korean war, OOPS, I mean Korean police action, So for rank testing he just had to know the Shukokai Kata's, There were few karate schools that were real fighting oriented, One was the closed workouts at Ed Parker's, The going into the back ally and doing 100 + push ups on the asphalt, Another school that turned out fighters was Tak Kubota, But most of the martial arts schools were more into turning out Japanese or Chinese then fighters, I have now been around martial arts since 1959 and do have some knowledge of what a martial artist looks like, Bruce was for real,

Once again sorry to change the subject, But I'm getting sick of the unknowing telling how it was.
WORDS WITHOUT KNOWLEDGE ARE NOISE !

Which still doesn't answer Danjo's question...

 

[shaolinmonkmark]

well, lets put it this way

Both Ed Parker and Al Tracy, who WERE around at the time said tegner was a laughing stock. Doc too for that matter, and he was around then.

i will take thier word for it.

I concur with twin fist.

 

[jukado1]

From Twin Fists:
"Both Ed Parker and Al Tracy, who WERE around at the time said tegner was a laughing stock. Doc too for that matter, and he was around then.

i will take thier word for it."
=====================================

First I also knew Ed Parker slightly, I met him at Bruce Tegner's school on a few occasions, He never said that in front of Bruce or I, So therefor you are saying he was a back stabber, Sorry, The Ed Parker I knew was a stand up guy, As far as The Tracys, They were good at selling karate school franchise's, On the Tracy's website thy state, "Bruce tegner was ridiculed for giving Rick Nelson a black belt," While stating that Ed Parker was responsible for Elvis getting a Black Belt in karate, Bull, Elvis's belt was given before Ed was in the picture, And their knowledge of bruce Tegner or Rick Nelson was very limited if not nonexistent. And as far as Doc, I have very little knowledge of him, As at the time I had no knowledge of him, In fact outside of the kenpo world I still have no knowledge of him, Only in this thread have I ever heard of him mentioning Bruce.

 

[celtic_crippler]

What's this thread about again?

 

[mwd0818]

What's this thread about again?

My kenpo's better than yours.

 

[John Bishop]

Well, my father had the Judo Club at the Los Angeles Athletic Club from around 1955 to 1960. Before that he had the Judo Club at Camp Pendleton. Before that he trained and received his black belt at the Kodokan.
Many times I observed his classes at the LAAC, and his weekend privates in our backyard. He taught me, my sister, and some neighborhood kids at the house for a few years off and on. His black belts would come and train in the backyard a lot.
Other then a punch here and there to soften up someone for a throw, or finish someone on the ground, I never saw anything resembling karate in the judo he and his Kodokan trained black belts did.
If your saying that Mr. Tegner learned karate katas, stances, strikes, and kicks from 8mm film, so be it. Obviously, he did well with his martial arts career from there. And people will form there own opinions about his and his students abilities. Every since the modern advent of video training courses, there is strong arguments for and against this type of training.
I, like many grew up reading his books and was curious about his actual training in all the arts he wrote about.

 

[jukado1]

For those who want to continue to attack Bruce Tegner start another thread, This has nothing to do with kenpo.
I will not interfere here again.