The Kenpo jujitsu connection

[Danjo]

Hi folks!
In regards to the kenpo jujitsu connection: Both Kenpo/Kempo/Chuan Fa/Kwon bop & Jujutsu/Jujitsu/Jiu Jitsu [BTW: I have nver liked the Jiu or jui preface,they don't call it Jiudo or juido, they call it judo!] are technique driven arts,originally neither had forms or kata. Contrary to some belief,
Kenpo has focused on street oriented defenses with no regards to political correctness nor codes of equiquette. What a respectable jujutsu practitioner might never do [strikes to the groin,for example] are fair game for a kempoka or kenpoist.
KENPOJOE

Well, Kenpo was just the kanji transliteration of "Chuan Fa" which was the generic word for Chinese martial arts. Almost all Chinese martial arts had forms. Motobu, Kyan, Matsumura, etc. etc. all used forms and their art was always referred to by them as "Kempo". In fact, the oldest references to Kenpo/kempo have the practitioners doing forms as the primary method of teaching the art. It's only modern Kenpo that tends to be more technique driven rather than form driven.

As to the idea of Jujutsu being "respectable", this is simply not true. It was so violent and brutal, and it's reputation was so bad (mostly brigands and mobsters practiced it when after the Samurai disolved) that Kano decided to only take the "gentle" parts of it when forming his art of Judo. Jujutsu was designed by Samurai for us against other Samurai in the battle field when they had lost their sword. Its goal was to annihilate the enemy and render him powerless as quickly as possible.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Well, Kenpo was just the kanji transliteration of "Chuan Fa" which was the generic word for Chinese martial arts. Almost all Chinese martial arts had forms. Motobu, Kyan, Matsumura, etc. etc. all used forms and their art was always referred to by them as "Kempo". In fact, the oldest references to Kenpo/kempo have the practitioners doing forms as the primary method of teaching the art. It's only modern Kenpo that tends to be more technique driven rather than form driven.

As to the idea of Jujutsu being "respectable", this is simply not true. It was so violent and brutal, and it's reputation was so bad (mostly brigands and mobsters practiced it when after the Samurai disolved) that Kano decided to only take the "gentle" parts of it when forming his art of Judo. Jujutsu was designed by Samurai for us against other Samurai in the battle field when they had lost their sword. Its goal was to annihilate the enemy and render him powerless as quickly as possible.

In addition, Jujutsu and judo both teach ample use of striking techniques to soften the opponent, making him more pliable..."atemi waza".

If you block an incoming attack, soften the guy with a couple atemi, THEN throw him to the ground where you lock him up or hit him some more...Hmm...starting to sound like kenpo/kempo/kajukenbo as we know it.

 

[arnisador]

In addition, Jujutsu and judo both teach ample use of striking techniques to soften the opponent, making him more pliable..."atemi waza".

Well, Judo contains them only in principle...good luck finding someone who will actually teach them these days!

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Well, Judo contains them only in principle...good luck finding someone who will actually teach them these days!

I know this is a problem with many schools, but I have been so far very lucky. One of my judo profs was also an old guerilla fighter against the Japanese in the Phillipines, and took a very serious view of atemi as softeners. It is, as you say, club dependent.

 

[MarkC]

My original system was a kempo-jutsu kind of thing, and contains quite a few techniques similar to various schools of jujutsu and aiki-justu.

 

[Darkside]

Hi folks!
Dear Darkside,
I think you "struck" upon an important point regarding both arts. I've always called jujitsu the art or "definite maybes" because some people have higher degrees of flexibility, tolerence to pain, as well as other factors that may circumvent a particular jujitsu technique being as effective as it would be to others. By the same token, if a particular given strike during the course of a given kenpo technique for some reason does not have it's desired effect, a kenpoist can convert to jujitsu as well. As I wrote in a previous post, I beleive I've worked with your instructor in the past and have brought GM German to your school.
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

Mr.Rebelo,
Good to hear from you. I grew up in New Bedford and originally studied kenpo under Steve Arsenault from my childhood until my early teens. Yes, Shane and myself are both students of Kim Deacon. I'll let her know you are trying to get in touch. Her number at the school is 401 765-4300. She is usually there monday-thursday from 4pm-7pm. I'll also get her cell phone number for you, or if you'd like to PM me a number to reach you at, i'll gladly pass it along.

Salute,
Jeff

 

[KenpoDave]

Hi folks!
In regards to the kenpo jujitsu connection: Both Kenpo/Kempo/Chuan Fa/Kwon bop & Jujutsu/Jujitsu/Jiu Jitsu [BTW: I have nver liked the Jiu or jui preface,they don't call it Jiudo or juido, they call it judo!] are technique driven arts,originally neither had forms or kata. Contrary to some belief,
Kenpo has focused on street oriented defenses with no regards to political correctness nor codes of equiquette.

Joe, I think you are overgeneralizing a little here. American Kenpo originally had no forms or kata, because they did not make it from Mitose to Chow to Parker. But American Kenpo is not the only kenpo.

But I am not sure that we can assume that pre-1922 Okinawan and Japanese kenpo practitioners did not practice forms or kata. As a matter of fact, we know that Motobu did.

 

[Doc]

Well, Kenpo was just the kanji transliteration of "Chuan Fa" which was the generic word for Chinese martial arts. Almost all Chinese martial arts had forms. Motobu, Kyan, Matsumura, etc. etc. all used forms and their art was always referred to by them as "Kempo". In fact, the oldest references to Kenpo/kempo have the practitioners doing forms as the primary method of teaching the art. It's only modern Kenpo that tends to be more technique driven rather than form driven.

As to the idea of Jujutsu being "respectable", this is simply not true. It was so violent and brutal, and it's reputation was so bad (mostly brigands and mobsters practiced it when after the Samurai disolved) that Kano decided to only take the "gentle" parts of it when forming his art of Judo. Jujutsu was designed by Samurai for us against other Samurai in the battle field when they had lost their sword. Its goal was to annihilate the enemy and render him powerless as quickly as possible.

Correctamundo! One big misconception is the belief in the pre-existing style of "Kenpojiujitsu, which actually comes from a linguistic misunderstanding. Simply, outside of China, Chinese martial arts were known by the translation of the kanji pronounced, "Kempo." The exception was Japan where they themselves had to draw a distinction between their actual fighting art(s), and their "do" arts by law and circumstance.

A distinction that many in the West failed to see because the business of the martial arts caused the marketing of all of the Japanese arts as "fighting vehicles," as opposed to the disciplined cultural activities they were and are in this country. Once they learned the west was very much interested in fighting, all of their arts became the "ultimate in self defense" on the window.

As an example, in Japan judo came to be known as the Japanese winter sport, and when Karate-do came along it was originally promoted as a similar secondary school vehicle like judo for the summer. Both groups of practitioners were commonly known as "players." It was not unusual for students to "play" both at the appropriate time of the year as a part of their nationalistic cultural development, not unlike the west and its seasonal sports in school.

The Japanese exception was what was left of their fighting arts after the demise of the Samurai and his sword, "jiujitsu." Thus in Japan, they made the distinction between "Japanese Karate-do, Ju-do, Aiki-do, Ken-do, Iai-do" as cultural disciplines, versus "Japanese Jiujitsu" as a true combat fighting vehicle.

With the importation of the "Chinese Method" of fighting known as "Kempo," It was often referred to commonly by laypeople as the "Kempo-Jiujitsu," or the "Chinese way of doing Japanese combat fighting." Thus, "Hey, look at the Chinese (Kempo) way of doing Japanese (Jiujitsu) fighting." Not a "style," but an expression.

Only later with the merging and creation of completely different meanings, interpretations, influences, and philosophy of the Chinese Arts through Kwai Sun Chow, who also studied with Henry Okazaki, did some of the old Chinese Chin-na and Japanese Samurai influence drift back into the art.

It was Chow who is credited by Ed Parker with the philosophical shift to self-defense first, over cultural training methods. This became his major influence, and he always gave Chow credit for that perspective.

 

[punisher73]

In addition, Jujutsu and judo both teach ample use of striking techniques to soften the opponent, making him more pliable..."atemi waza".

If you block an incoming attack, soften the guy with a couple atemi, THEN throw him to the ground where you lock him up or hit him some more...Hmm...starting to sound like kenpo/kempo/kajukenbo as we know it.

I remember reading an old interview (don't remember when or who though) from one of Kano's students. In it he talked about after class the judo players would go into some of the bars to test what they were learning. He said that if you couldn't knock the guy out in one strike, you would get harassed and would work that much harder at your atemi. It was something along those lines though and it was odd that he talked about the importance placed on striking in judo in the early days.

 

[KENPOJOE]

Hi folks!
Dear Mr. Weston,
First of all, "Chuan Fa" is not a Kanji [Japanese Character] tranlation for chinese martial arts. The correct terms for chinese martial arts in the Chinese venacular are "Wu Shu" [martial arts] or Chung Kuo Wu Shu [Chinese Martial Arts] or "Kuo Shu" ["national arts] in Taiwan. You are correct in the fact that most chinese martial arts had/have forms, however, the context of Chuan Fa is also a history of techniques taught to chinese peasants by revolutionaries in order to restore the the ming dynasty from the ching [mongols] who did not have time to learn entire kungfu systems. our kenpo salute is used as "restore the ming,overthrow the ching". The use of those techniques are still used by kempo families such as Motobu, I know this because I have learned those very techniques from Chosei Motobu himself as well as his students. in their given tradition, there is only one empty hand form [nahanchi] and 12 self defense techniques. However, you state there have been many technique driven arts that refered to themselves as Kenpo/kempo/chuan fa/kwon bop...
Case in point:Mas oyama mentioned he had learned a "18 technique" style of kenpo. no kata was taught only techniques
Bong Soo Han learned a kenpo system that also taught techniques not forms.
Even some mitose students state the focus of their training was technique driven, not form based.
Even Kajukenbo, which you study, had a focus on techniques, not kata, hence the shortness of the various palama set/pinian forms.
Many used the technique format through the use of the term "kumite" ["blending of the hand"] which in modern times we simply think of as sparring. In many styles, the use of one,two and three step sparring drills is an important element or pre arranged techniques.
Jujutsu was only considered "brutal" because as opposed to the "gentlemanly" art of swordsmanship, empty handed fighting was considered a last resort when all weaponry based arts failed or were unavailable. kenpo as well as jujutsu has had more than it's fair share of "bad boys" who were more than happy to test their skills on the street.
I agree with your discription of jujutsu.
However, I still maintain that kenpo was and is still primarily a technique based art.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

Well, Kenpo was just the kanji transliteration of "Chuan Fa" which was the generic word for Chinese martial arts. Almost all Chinese martial arts had forms. Motobu, Kyan, Matsumura, etc. etc. all used forms and their art was always referred to by them as "Kempo". In fact, the oldest references to Kenpo/kempo have the practitioners doing forms as the primary method of teaching the art. It's only modern Kenpo that tends to be more technique driven rather than form driven.

As to the idea of Jujutsu being "respectable", this is simply not true. It was so violent and brutal, and it's reputation was so bad (mostly brigands and mobsters practiced it when after the Samurai disolved) that Kano decided to only take the "gentle" parts of it when forming his art of Judo. Jujutsu was designed by Samurai for us against other Samurai in the battle field when they had lost their sword. Its goal was to annihilate the enemy and render him powerless as quickly as possible.

 

[KENPOJOE]

Joe, I think you are overgeneralizing a little here. American Kenpo originally had no forms or kata, because they did not make it from Mitose to Chow to Parker. But American Kenpo is not the only kenpo.

But I am not sure that we can assume that pre-1922 Okinawan and Japanese kenpo practitioners did not practice forms or kata. As a matter of fact, we know that Motobu did.

Hi folks!
Dear Dave,
I'm not basing my opinion solely on american kenpo. I base that on researching several different kenpo/kempo styles. As I mentioned prevously, Motobu only taught 1 kata and 12 self defense techniques. many of the okinawan kata came from various sources who do not claim kenpo roots or even use the term.
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE
PS: hope to see you in Chicago in june!

 

[Danjo]

Hi folks!
Dear Mr. Weston,
First of all, "Chuan Fa" is not a Kanji [Japanese Character] tranlation for chinese martial arts. The correct terms for chinese martial arts in the Chinese venacular are "Wu Shu" [martial arts] or Chung Kuo Wu Shu [Chinese Martial Arts] or "Kuo Shu" ["national arts] in Taiwan. You are correct in the fact that most chinese martial arts had/have forms, however, the context of Chuan Fa is also a history of techniques taught to chinese peasants by revolutionaries in order to restore the the ming dynasty from the ching [mongols] who did not have time to learn entire kungfu systems. our kenpo salute is used as "restore the ming,overthrow the ching". The use of those techniques are still used by kempo families such as Motobu, I know this because I have learned those very techniques from Chosei Motobu himself as well as his students. in their given tradition, there is only one empty hand form [nahanchi] and 12 self defense techniques. However, you state there have been many technique driven arts that refered to themselves as Kenpo/kempo/chuan fa/kwon bop...
Case in point:Mas oyama mentioned he had learned a "18 technique" style of kenpo. no kata was taught only techniques
Bong Soo Han learned a kenpo system that also taught techniques not forms.
Even some mitose students state the focus of their training was technique driven, not form based.
Even Kajukenbo, which you study, had a focus on techniques, not kata, hence the shortness of the various palama set/pinian forms.
Many used the technique format through the use of the term "kumite" ["blending of the hand"] which in modern times we simply think of as sparring. In many styles, the use of one,two and three step sparring drills is an important element or pre arranged techniques.
Jujutsu was only considered "brutal" because as opposed to the "gentlemanly" art of swordsmanship, empty handed fighting was considered a last resort when all weaponry based arts failed or were unavailable. kenpo as well as jujutsu has had more than it's fair share of "bad boys" who were more than happy to test their skills on the street.
I agree with your discription of jujutsu.
However, I still maintain that kenpo was and is still primarily a technique based art.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

Where to start?

Kenpo / Kempo / Quan Fa / Chuan Fa

Mandarin: quán fǎ
Okinawan:Kenpo
Japanese: kenpou
Korean: 권법

This form of martial arts can be translated in several ways. Some will call it "fist principles" or "the way of the fist", or even "law of the fist". The first character literally means fist. The second can mean law, method, way, principle or Buddhist teaching. It still means Kung Fu in a generic sense. True, "wu shu" literally means "martial arts" but that also applies to using chariots and spears etc. i.e., "war arts" and is not merely restricted to "hand to hand combat" the way Chuan Fa is.

They are still form driven. Motobu knew MANY forms/kata and remarked on them in his books. He chose to use the first two Nihanchi kata in his curriculum (the same two that Chosei demonstrates in his video) and had this to say about Kata:

"Everything one needs to know about Karate Kenpo is found in Naihanchi No Kata. The position of the legs and hips in Naihanchi No Kata is the basics of Kenpo. Twisting to the left or right from the Naihanchi stance will give you the positioning used in a real confrontation. Twisting one's way of thinking about Naihanchi left and right, the various meanings in each movement of the kata will also become clear. The technique of kata have its limits and one must come to understand this. The techniques of kata were never developed to be used against a professional fighter, in an arena or on the battlefield. They were, however, most effective against someone who had no idea of the strategy being used to counter their aggressive behavior. A small man must improve his technique as much as he can, and discover how it can be used regardless of time, place and opponent. In spite of a street encounter never being the same, the principles of the kata never vary. However, one must learn how they are applied and how to bend with the winds of adversity."

Thus, Motobu's Karate kenpo was kata/form based. The fact that he only taught two (and some say three) forms does not change this fact. He goes on so much about the value of kata in his two books, that it is hardly worth mentioning. The above passage gives the gist of it though.

The Bubishi also extoles the neccessity and virtues of the "quan" or "kata" and its practice for kempo karate-jutsu. Okinawan Kempo Karate-jutsu was developed primarily from Yongchun White Crane and Monk Fist Boxing. Both of which relied on quan/kata to transmit the curriculum to their students.

As to Mitose; the only kata he taught that we know of was Naihanchi Shodan (presumably learned from Motobu's book which we know he had access to since he used portions of it in his own book later). However, when I say "modern kenpo/kempo" I count it as starting with him. So when I say that it was primarily technique driven, I do mean the stuff that started with Mitose and then Chow.

Kajukenbo isn't kenpo. The Original Method used Kenpo as its base or frame to build on since Sijo Emperado was the most experienced martial artist of that group and so they built Kajukenbo upon that frame of Kenpo that Emperado learned from Prof. Chow. But it's not Kenpo per se.

 

[punisher73]

Hi folks!
Dear Dave,
I'm not basing my opinion solely on american kenpo. I base that on researching several different kenpo/kempo styles. As I mentioned prevously, Motobu only taught 1 kata and 12 self defense techniques. many of the okinawan kata came from various sources who do not claim kenpo roots or even use the term.
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE
PS: hope to see you in Chicago in june!

I have read some more research and corresponded with a couple historians who shared that Choki Motobu did know more than just the Naihanchi katas and did teach them, it was just that his study of Naihanchi was what he was most known for. Also, the "12 self-defense techniques" were NOT set in stone and actually were just demos for a book, he had quite a few others.

His son Chosei, does alot of seminars on Naihanchi and the 12 techniques which further cements that appearance.

 

[Danjo]

I have read some more research and corresponded with a couple historians who shared that Choki Motobu did know more than just the Naihanchi katas and did teach them, it was just that his study of Naihanchi was what he was most known for. Also, the "12 self-defense techniques" were NOT set in stone and actually were just demos for a book, he had quite a few others.

His son Chosei, does alot of seminars on Naihanchi and the 12 techniques which further cements that appearance.

True. Even in his books, he is shown demonstrating several defense techniques that are not found in the "Twelve True Kumite Forms". He wasn't as limited as people have made him out to be. In fact, most of that image came from Funakoshi bashing him in Japan.

 

[hongkongfooey]

so Doc, what you are saying is people sacrifice the art for the better of THEIR business??? shouldn't it be the other way around??? I am lucky to have found a instructor that teaches the "commercial" system, but is a stickler for all the jiu-jitsu... she was a good friend and brief student of the late Mr.German that helped her pull this aspect out of the kenpo curriculum

It's the Kenpo way to sacrifice the system for business. Cherish the seniors out there with real knowledge of Kenpo. Once they're gone Kenpo will be the Tae Bo of the martial arts world.

 

[Doc]

It's the Kenpo way to sacrifice the system for business. Cherish the seniors out there with real knowledge of Kenpo. Once they're gone Kenpo will be the Tae Bo of the martial arts world.

It already is ....

 

[hongkongfooey]

It already is ....

Doc,

You are right. More crap Kenpo out there than good.

 

[Danjo]

Doc,

You are right. More crap Kenpo out there than good.

I think it has to do with the idea that people get when they think that they've "arrived" and stop learning.

Even those that realize that they have more to learn, often try for more "breadth" rather than "depth' in their art. They get to a sticking point, and rather than seeking to deepen their understanding of their art, they seek to broaden it by adding a bunch of stuff to it from other disciplines. While this may seem like increasing one's knowledge, it really just stunts their growth and they end up with an art that is a mile wide and only and inch deep. So what gets passed on is shallow. The very idea that things of significance can be taught via video is evidence that something got dropped along the way. The stuff I continue to learn about my art, can not be taught via video, nor is it learned through fumbling around on my own.

There's simply no replacing knowledgable instruction. Without it, the arts, whether it be Kenpo or anything else, devolve into a parody of itself.

 

[hongkongfooey]

I think it has to do with the idea that people get when they think that they've "arrived" and stop learning.

Even those that realize that they have more to learn, often try for more "breadth" rather than "depth' in their art. They get to a sticking point, and rather than seeking to deepen their understanding of their art, they seek to broaden it by adding a bunch of stuff to it from other disciplines. While this may seem like increasing one's knowledge, it really just stunts their growth and they end up with an art that is a mile wide and only and inch deep. So what gets passed on is shallow. The very idea that things of significance can be taught via video is evidence that something got dropped along the way. The stuff I continue to learn about my art, can not be taught via video, nor is it learned through fumbling around on my own.

There's simply no replacing knowledgeable instruction. Without it, the arts, whether it be Kenpo or anything else, devolve into a parody of itself.

Absolutely correct, Dan. Somewhere down the line some American Kenpo people decided that more was better and added more filler material to system already bloated with busy work. More is not always better, especially in a system that claims to be the "ultimate in self defense" Now, I am sure most Kenpo people will disagree with me here, but It seems that the guys coming up in the late 50's to the early 70's were learning material that was more combat oriented. I can't say that about many of today's practitioners, especially in my area.

The overwhelming majority of Kenpo schools in my area are a joke. We have three 10th degree black belts with two claiming direct lineage to Ed Parker, and one off shoot claiming lineage to one of the 10th's, within 30 minutes driving distance from my home. One of these 10th's is very well known in the Kenpo world. It's a sad to see what Kenpo has become.