The Existence of Chi

Jade Tigress

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Ok - Chi/Qi/Ki is a popular theme in martial arts. Some people believe in it, some think it's a bunch of hooey, and some don't care either way.

I personally believe in the concept of chi, but not in a mystical, magical sort of way. I believe chi is our biological energy. Everyone knows the body has electrical impulses. Can biological energy - or chi - be physically developed by training, just as muscles and cardio stamina can be developed by training? If we can learn the proper excercises to develop those parts of our body, then why would we not also be able to develop the bio-energy we all have?

I think we can through qigong exercises, tai chi training, and by practicing a myriad of other martial arts that can develop chi as a by-product of training, to a certain extent, just by learning how to relax and breath properly.

What are your thoughts on chi, it's existence, and the ability to develop it?
 
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AlwaysTraining

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The existence of ki/chi is something I believe in. But, the form in which it exists is something I'm not so sure about. Just yesterday I asked my sensei how one develops strength of ki. She said it was developed through practicing kata as well as emphasis placed on breathing and perhaps meditation. As an off-shoot from the meditation suggestion, MA such as tai chi would also be effective in developing such strength of ki.

I am primarily a Japanese MA practitioner, however, I believe ki and chi exist as one and the same. I think it's interesting that through the study and practice of kata/forms that MA practitioners strengthen their ki/chi. On a personal note, after a good kata session I can really feel my ki strength increased.
 

tshadowchaser

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I have always belived in it.
I have seen some things done that i have no other explanation for
I think that breathing has much to due with the flow but am not an expert on the subject ( so i've been told)
 

Jonathan Randall

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I honestly don't know. IMO, you are closer to the truth by defining it as a biological energy (that could eventually have a scientific explanation) than many self-styled Martial Arts experts who use it to shroud normal, everyday newtonian physical principles in eastern mysticism in order to mislead the gullible.

Good question - I wish I had some sort of answer for besides "don't know". :idunno:
 
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Jade Tigress

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I am in no way an expert on chi either. I actually know very little about it but I am learning. One thing I can say is I've seen it used and I've felt it so I know it's there.


On a personal note, after a good kata session I can really feel my ki strength increased.

Me too. I think learning to breathe properly is a huge component of chi development. Qigong exercises and practicing tai chi both focus on proper breathing, as do many other martial arts. I also believe working in circular instead of linear patterns heightens chi development.
 

jujutsu_indonesia

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Sil Lum TigerLady said:
Ok - Chi/Qi/Ki is a popular theme in martial arts. Some people believe in it, some think it's a bunch of hooey, and some don't care either way.

Not sure I understand about Chi and Qi, but Ki in the martial art that I learn (jujutsu) simply means energy, and aiki is the energy that is being created when two opposing forces meet. thus the art of aiki jujutsu is the art of self-defense using that energy that is being released when the attack of the attacker is moving towards the body of the defender.

not very deep or metaphysical, i know, please don't shoot me I am just a 3rd kyu ;)
 

Makalakumu

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I don't believe that chi is some mystical force that ties us all together and makes us one with the universe. I don't see it as some fifth universal force that we know nothing about. Chi is not magic. If chi exists, then it must be measurable in some way and it must have a physical explanation.

Defining chi as electromagnetic energy makes some sense. One can detect bioelectric currents with a sensative voltmeter and these currents intensify around accupuncture points and along meridians. When points are manipulated, the bioelectric flow is also altered. The effects of these altered currents are still being debated.
 

Shirt Ripper

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Sil Lum TigerLady said:
I believe chi is our biological energy.

Agreed. I would also go so far as to say it's included in the subjective sense of things, when people reference being "emotionally drained." Are your emotions fed directly by sugar as the body is? No, but still so often do we hear of people being, as stated, emotionally drained. This is where I qualify chi (ki). Involving the main energy systems of the body, the CNS, and the mind (mood).

I, of course, am hardly an authority on the subject.
 
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AlwaysTraining

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Beware of a line of thought that would suggest that all with regard to the existence of ki/chi would be revealed once it is simply quantized. If there is any relation between ki/chi and quantum mechincs (as is the case in electro-magnetism) then the secrets of ki/chi may prove to be every bit as elusive as they are now. It may not be as simple as measuring volts and amps.
 

Jonathan Randall

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AlwaysTraining said:
Beware of a line of thought that would suggest that all with regard to the existence of ki/chi would be revealed once it is simply quantized. If there is any relation between ki/chi and quantum mechincs (as is the case in electro-magnetism) then the secrets of ki/chi may prove to be every bit as elusive as they are now. It may not be as simple as measuring volts and amps.

Good point. I do think there is something there (ki/chi), but I don't think our generation, or even the next, will be able to totally define or quantify it.
 

Lisa

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Jonathan Randall said:
Good point. I do think there is something there (ki/chi), but I don't think our generation, or even the next, will be able to totally define or quantify it.

I agree. We don't use our human minds to their capabilities yet. I think I read somewhere once we only use 2-3%, something like that. Anyways, it makes me wonder what our brains are capable of and perhaps ki/chi is part of that. I am a bit of a skeptic about things that can't be scientifically proven, however, the one thing that has always kept me having an open mind is the fact that we haven't finished evolving yet.

It will be many generations down the line before it is quantified.
 

Makalakumu

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AlwaysTraining said:
Beware of a line of thought that would suggest that all with regard to the existence of ki/chi would be revealed once it is simply quantized. If there is any relation between ki/chi and quantum mechincs (as is the case in electro-magnetism) then the secrets of ki/chi may prove to be every bit as elusive as they are now. It may not be as simple as measuring volts and amps.

I think we are well on the way of scientifically unlocking the secrets regarding what "chi" can do and what it can't do. There is a lot of resistence to this kind of research...but I think that most of it comes in the form of people who are trying to keep the subject mystical and ambiguous. Chi, for many people, has become part of a psuedo-religion and whenever science tackles and defines topics in peoplse spiritual, information that runs counter to the dogma is resisted. My personal feelings regarding "chi" lead me to wait until an ability can be repeated/studied by anyone, including skeptics, before I'll accept it as true. I find that I am able to ward off charletenry with this approach...
 

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Like others, I accept the existence of ch'i as prana, elan vital, or biological-sexual energy. This is by far its most common conception in both traditional Chinese medicine and martial arts. This also shares a resonance with certain aspects of Indian pranayama and Tibetan kundalini yoga.

I am also extremely skeptical about attempts to collapse the concept of ch'i with both theoretical physics and contemplative spirituality. The three compose ontologically and epistemologicall discrete domains, in my opinion. There is correlation a plenty, but you "know" and "experience" these three phenomena in fundamentally different ways.

I would also like to point out that, outside of aikido and reiki, it is somewhat disingenous to equate the Chinese concept of ch'i with the Japanese concept of ki. In most forms of traditional budo, ki is imagined more along the lines of something as "spirit" (with a similar meaning as shin), as opposed to some internal "force" or "energy" you can manipulate.

Laterz.
 
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mwelch

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Prana, pneuma (Greek), chi, ki, spiritus (Latin) -- They all mean breath. The reason a basketball bounces is because it is full of air. Life force has always been equated to breath. To say that chi is air is not to diminish its meaning but to point out that air or breath is much deeper and more mysterious than we think. We discount such "simple" explanations because of their familiarity. No, it can't be that. Chi or ki must be "electromagnetic energy" or "spiritual energy" or whatever. People talk about chi transference and all sorts of things. The key to anything like this is actual experience. Too many people PREFER to think about or talk about such phenomena without actually testing these concepts for themselves.

We are taught, for example, that chi cannot stop, that it must flow or "circulate." So there is the "large" circulation and the "small"... The small circulation is practiced and observed during simple sitting meditation. The chi or breath circulates from the crown of the head to the point between the genitals and the anus,with the respirational movement controlled through the lower abdomen. This is the "quiet sitting" meditation. How simple! How difficult!

The large circulation is felt and observed during the slow and diligently performed movement of the traditional t'ai chi ch'uan form and other similar disciplines. At first, for a beginner, my teacher says "You must follow the Form. Later, the Form will follow you." And when you reach a better level of understanding and completeness in your adherence to the Form, you begin to feel the flow of chi manifest itself.

But everyone who is alive "has" chi. It is as intimate and indispensable as our very breath. Not something distant and unfamiliar at all. Maybe that is the reason people seem to mystify it.
 

Laoshi77

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Hello.

Qi (Chi) is the source of vitality in the body, when it is present in abundance one is healthy, if absent one is dead.

'heretic', whatever language is used it still means the same thing - energy. In Chinese, Qi is related to the concept of spirit: Kan and Li.

Jingluo, channels (jing) and collaterals (luo), are pathways in which the energies of the body circulates. They penetrate the organs (zangfu) interiorly and extend over the body exteriorly, forming a network of linking tissues and organs into an organic whole.

And that seems to be the easy part as the mind (wuxing) should be used to focus the energy. This is the part which takes a great deal of patience and dedication, something many people cannot find time for, and then usually go on to dismiss the very existence of Qi.
 

heretic888

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Laoshi77 said:
'heretic', whatever language is used it still means the same thing - energy. In Chinese, Qi is related to the concept of spirit: Kan and Li.

In Chinese, ch'i is also distinguished from both jing and shen.

The three concepts are related, of course, but they are also different.

Additionally, when practitioners of traditional Chinese medicine and martial artists refer to ch'i as "energy" they do not have the same meaning as what a physicist would refer to as "energy". Unless, of course, its the handful that are part of the popular pseudoscientific New Age trend to collapse aspects of Western theoretical physics with aspects of Eastern mysticism.

The closest equivalent to ch'i in Western science is, in my opinion, ATP energy. This is the fuel source for all living cells and, when any cell runs out of it, its metabolism breaks down and it eventually dies. However, it should be further emphasized that ATP is an objective occurence that we observe through the natural sciences. Ch'i, properly understood, is a subjective occurence that is experienced phenomenologically from "within". So, even then, the two only have a correlational connection.

This is all just my perspective on the matter, mind you.

Laterz.
 

Makalakumu

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heretic888 said:
The closest equivalent to ch'i in Western science is, in my opinion, ATP energy. This is the fuel source for all living cells and, when any cell runs out of it, its metabolism breaks down and it eventually dies. However, it should be further emphasized that ATP is an objective occurence that we observe through the natural sciences. Ch'i, properly understood, is a subjective occurence that is experienced phenomenologically from "within". So, even then, the two only have a correlational connection.

IMO, chi is a blanket term for a number of different phenomenon ranging from the one listed above to bioelectricity to the "placebo effect" which is another blanket term in itself. There is no common thread that ties them together.
 

heretic888

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upnorthkyosa said:
IMO, chi is a blanket term for a number of different phenomenon ranging from the one listed above to bioelectricity to the "placebo effect" which is another blanket term in itself. There is no common thread that ties them together.

I would agree with this characterization.

The only real problems I have with all this talk about "ch'i" is:

1) It is sometimes mistakenly collapsed with "energy" in the sense that it is understood in theoretical physics. In physics, energy is completely insentient, non-living, and doesn't keep you "alive" or "vital" any more than it does an atom.

2) It is treated as an objective "force" when its experience is entirely phenomenological and subjective.

3) There are numerous charlatans, frauds, and New Age nutjobs that make claims about what they can "do" with ch'i that, very simply, are absurd.

Laterz.
 
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mwelch

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It would if force from the outside were applied in the right way. A basketball doesn't move until that happens. Compression of air or breath and its movement is more what is meant. There is air still elft inside a corpse, but it is not compressed by the lungs and the movement of the body, so it stagnates. I mean, this is not a hugely mysterious deal here, unless people want to make it something esoteric. It is as common as dirt or water...or air.
 

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