The Existence of Chi

[Laoshi77]

energy is... non-living, and doesn't keep you "alive" or "vital" any more than it does an atom.

All living things are charged by Qi or 'life-force' according to the Chinese perspective.

Qi can also refer to energy, as represented by the Chinese character for the word, and the reason why one translation for Qi Gong is 'energy work'.

Qi is distinguished from just one definition hence the reason i included 'Kan' and 'Li'.

But that is of course just a theory, a theory of Classical Chinese Medicine dating back a few thousand years!

 

[tshadowchaser]

3) There are numerous charlatans, frauds, and New Age nutjobs that make claims about what they can "do" with ch'i that, very simply, are absurd.

and that is one of the reasons that it is misunderstood and considered a bunch of bolony by so many (to many fakes trying to make belive they can ""control"" something the have no idea how to use

 

[Laoshi77]

3) There are numerous charlatans, frauds, and New Age nutjobs that make claims about what they can "do" with ch'i that, very simply, are absurd.

I for one, certainly would not dare to call the masters of Wudang charlatans!

 

[Brother John]

I would also like to point out that, outside of aikido and reiki, it is somewhat disingenous to equate the Chinese concept of ch'i with the Japanese concept of ki. In most forms of traditional budo, ki is imagined more along the lines of something as "spirit" (with a similar meaning as shin), as opposed to some internal "force" or "energy" you can manipulate.
Laterz.

I really liked the first couple of paragraphs, as the positive rep point I sent you says, but I'd like to comment on this last one.

Both the Japanese Ki and Chinese Chi are said to be energy. Calling energy a "Force" is the same thing, different terms. (Like: Magnetism can be described as both a force and an energy)

Also: In much of the Japanese study of what might be called "KI-work" the mind and breath play a roll in manipulating Ki, just like in it's Chinese counterpart of Chi-Kung. Both systems use meditation to help become sensitive to this energy and breathwork in manipulating it. So with the mind manipulating it consider this, the Japanese word "Shin" is used interchangably for either the concept of "mind" or "spirit". Likewise, the Japanese term spirit (as used in the Koryu Budo/Bujutsu) is Not a direct correlation to the use of the term in western thinking.. but probably has more to do with mental focus and exertion of a directed will as well as a stoic harnessing of emotion.

So: In Japanese the term for mind can equate to 'spirit'. Both the Japanese and Chinese Chi/Ki systems have a good deal of breathwork and meditation, along with a specific type of movement, to aquire the ability to make use of or "manipulate" this energy/force.

All of this comes from a very similar source: Traditional Chinese Medicine (AKA: TCM), the oldest form of medicine still in active use. Both the Japanese and Chinese martial traditions have many of the same theories as TCM such as meridian theory, exact points of entry to these meridians, the use of breathwork, mental work and movement/exercise to influence/control the energy that runs through these meridians, and the physical accessing of these meridians to elicit physical results in the recipient; wether for healing, subduing or harming. The two cultures have their own systems of healing based on these theories and practices: in the Japanese culture they have Shiatsu and secondarily Reiki (a very new field to a very old approach).... their correlation in the Chinese culture? Accupuncture and Tui-na and accupuncture. (Tui-na is the process of the diagnosis and treatment of physical issues through massage that activates certain patterns throughout the recipient's meridians to cause specific effects....it's pretty much a direct correlation to the much bettern known "Shiatsu".) The two cultures also have their own martial traditions that address these theories, both are repleat with them. Often the practitioner is ignorant that they are infact activating the attackers Kyusho or "Pressure Points"....a term that falls woefully short of what it really is by the way. For instance: the traditional Koryu-Bugei (traditional Warrior systems) of Japan have a study called "Kyushojutsu", which is the study of using/accessing the body's meridians through specific points that can be struck, poked, rubbed, grabed, brushed, scratched, stabbed, twisted...etc. all to elicit anything from added pain to their strike to abrupt debilitating pain, to numbness, to energy drain (like an instant fatigue), inhibitting breath, inhibiting the regular flow of blood, unconsciousness (short and long term), blindness or other sensory disruption(primarily short term), muscle spasms/cramps, loss of use of a limb, severe disorientation or death. The process to do this uses these "points" of access into the body's meridians to effect the flow of Chi and effect the body's neurological system.

The oldest systems of Karate-Do are proven to be founded upon a deep knowledge of this practice. The ancient texts known as the "Bubishi" show that the men recognized as the great masters of Okinawa founded their kata and technical practices on this knowledge and skill that they aquired from martial arts masters and texts in Fuchow China. Gichin Funakoshi is quoted (if memory serves) as saying that all strikes should be directed at "Kyusho"...these points of access. To this day if a traditional Karateka were to take this knowledge of Kyushojutsu and apply it to their Kata-Bunkai (interpretation of their forms) they unfold a WEALTH of information that the masters imbedded within, some that many....Many....for decades never knew was a facet of their art. Chojun Miyagi Sensei, the founder of Goju Ryu Karate-Do, drew the name of his system (Goju = hard/soft) from a line in the Bubishi, showing he had this knowledge. The Bubishi came from masters in the area of Fuchow China... which is exactly where Master Miyagi returned to study martial arts well after he'd alredy founded his style, been awarded the title of "Hanshi" (sort of a 'teacher of teachers' according to the Budokukai, the organizing board for traditional martial arts in Japan) and made The representative OF the Budokukai for the RyuKyu Islands (Okinawan archipelago).... after ALL that........where did the master return 3 times to train, to finish off his art and create the main Kata for his system? Fuchow China, the same place that the "Bubishi" came from. Miyagi's Kata are also known for their imbedded breathwork....which correlates to the breathwork of Chi-Kung. Anko Itosu and Azato Itosu (two of Funakoshi's primary instructors) also demonstrated a replete knowledge of the Bubishi and it's principles. I put all of this forward to show... the teachings that later split and divided like a protazoa ....and became the MANY systems that are now lumped into the catagory of "Karate-Do" were in many regards founded on these systems of "Manipulating" Chi, through accessing the paths through which Chi/Ki flows...the "meridians" of Traditional Chinese Medicine.

The Chinese systems??? WOW.... many of them were founded on this knowledge and a good deal of those still contain the "know HOW", both of cultivating the ability to control/manipulate the Chi in themselves as well as using the knowledge as a part of their martial art to overcome any attacker efficiently. The breathwork, the postures, the motion, the meditative exercises, the knowledge of the access points and HOW to access them......... it's pretty much "IN THERE" in the Chinese arts.

In all of these systems, the Chi/Ki can be called "Spirit" or "Mind" with equal accuracy.....same with "Energy" or "Force".

wow.....didn't know I'd written THIS much. Hope yall stayed with me.
thanks if you did.

Your Brother
John

 

[Xue Sheng]

Traditional Chinese Medicine view of Chi.

Internal Chi
"No one knows what it is, because there is no way to detect it"
"You can feel something flowing inside the body and you can feel that flow increase if you train, however there is currently no way to prove its existence."

There is a professor and Beijing University of TCM who is working on developing equipment that can sense internal Qi. Currently he feels that the majority of people that claim they have strong internal Qi are lying. He does however believe that Qi exists.

External Qi
"This can be demonstrated by people"
Example, Practitioners of Iron Shirt Chi gong, or other forms of external Qi training.

Many Chinese martial artists are trained in external Qi in China. If you see a Shaolin monk demo were they bend spears and staffs that are between the ground and their body, this is external Qi. Or a Chen stylist that can crush a rock with his heal and feel no pain and receive no injury, this is external Qi.

 

[Brother John]

3) There are numerous charlatans, frauds, and New Age nutjobs that make claims about what they can "do" with ch'i that, very simply, are absurd.

Charlatans abound!!!
Your statement is VERY VERY true! ...and is a word of warning to anyone that looks into this matter. Take a HEFTY grain of salt and a pound of good sense when investigating.....but keep an open mind and most of all:
FIND OUT FOR YOURSELF.

Infact one of the reasons that the study of these "Pressure Point" arts/systems, as they are commonly called today, is looked down upon, skowled at or even dirisively laughed at is because some of the Loudest spokespeople for this study are very laughable/gimicky people.... wether or not they have this knowledge/know-how........that's beside the point:::mostly because in OTHER ways they usually disqualify themselves as people I'd want to listen too or especially emulate. As with so many things they tend to have LOW moral/ethical standards and see this very interesting study to be a martial arts GOLD MINE...which they exploit to their financial gain an notorious reputation. (and man DO they) So...in their exploitation they EXAGERATE or fabricate in order to keep the hoards coming back for MORE and paying what they must pay to gain this "rare knowledge".
....very frustrating....

...but it doesn't negate the validity or historical evidence/import of the grain of truth (a significant grain) that they base their suppositions and exagerations on.
...but they sure can be the Fly in the ointment.

Your Brother
John

 

[Brother John]

when practitioners of traditional Chinese medicine and martial artists refer to ch'i as "energy" they do not have the same meaning as what a physicist would refer to as "energy".

Good point! The two uses of the term don't really correlate that well, it's more of an aproximation. It's MORE than difficult (some say impossible, but I'm not a big fan of the concept of "impossible") to approach TCM or the systems based on it through the paradigms of traditional empirical science. There are many who are MUCH MUCH more knowledgable/experienced than myself in either field who try to reconcile them. Some seem to get closer, others........are really reaching.

I personally think that if you want to avail yourself of the knowledge/know-how you don't NEED to approach it through anything it didn't originally come with.
That's where an open mind comes in.

Your Brother
John

 

[Xue Sheng]

Charlatans abound!!!

Infact one of the reasons that the study of these "Pressure Point" arts/systems, as they are commonly called today, is looked down upon, skowled at or even dirisively laughed at is because some of the Loudest spokespeople for this study are very laughable/gimicky people.... Your Brother
John

Pressure point systems in TCM is Tui Na and studied quiet extensively in Beijing University of TCM and practiced in the Traditional Chinese Medicine Dept of Beijing Hospital (the government hospital)

 

[Xue Sheng]

Good point! The two uses of the term don't really correlate that well, it's more of an aproximation. It's MORE than difficult (some say impossible, but I'm not a big fan of the concept of "impossible") to approach TCM or the systems based on it through the paradigms of traditional empirical science.
Your Brother
John

I was amazed at how a TCM doctor trained in China and practicing in China thinks about medicine the same way Western MDs thinks about medicine. There is no mysticism, just what is accepted and Chinese Scientific fact.

They also know that there are things that are best treated by western medicine and things treated better by eastern medicine. The 2 work together not against each other. However it is when TCM gets to the west they tend to be at odds.

As for Chi, it is also accepted in China as fact, however there are two general headings, Internal and External. External is easy to prove or disprove, internal is near impossible to prove or disprove.

 

[Brother John]

Pressure point systems in TCM is Tui Na and studied quiet extensively in Beijing University of TCM and practiced in the Traditional Chinese Medicine Dept of Beijing Hospital (the government hospital)

Please, please don't think I'm indicating that all practitioners of "Pressure Point" work are hucksters. Not by any stretch. Especially those trained in actual TCM and Tui-Na. I have a Great deal of respect for this system and only regret that there's not a school for the study near me.

No, what I was indicating were mostly martial arts persons.... predominantly in the USA (unfortunately, but not exclusively) who market their mystical 'secrets' to the masses in order to make money. Their claims are very exagerated or often outright lies.
No: I won't name names. That's rude. But I think it's important to know that these types are out there so that we can discern the quality from the bunk.

Your Brother
John

 

[Rick Wade]

I personally don't believe in it. I have asked several people to demonstrate it to me and they can't. I have a good friend that believes in it and there isn't anything he can do that I can't WRT CHI. Once someone shows me I will beleve and start developing my CHI.



V/R

Rick

 

[Xue Sheng]

Agreed.

There are many in the US, China and world wide that are not entirely honest about their Qi.

As I mentioned in a previous post, there is a professor of Qi Gong at Beijing University for traditional Chinese medicine that also agrees.

He is trying to make something that can detect internal Chi, because although he feels it is a real thing, he also feels that many who claim they have it are not entirely honest.

I was once told a story about one of these less than honest people that went to a Chinese martial arts school to demonstrate his Martial Qi. To make a long story short the Sifu of the school (trained in Taiwan, Kung fu, Tai Chi & Qi Gong) kicked the supposed Qi master, and his students, out of his school, because the Qi master was a fake.

 

[Laoshi77]

I think this debate considers what your experiences have been, and is ultimately dependent on having trained in Qi Gong.

Personally, when i first started practising Qi Gong i was told specifically that i would get nowhere without training every day. 'Iron is full of impurities that weaken it; through forging, it becomes steel and is transformed into a razor-sharp sword. Human beings develop in the same fashion' - Morihei Ueshiba, The Art of Peace.

One thing i know for sure is that there are many cynics out there who base their opinions on insufficient practice.

Best wishes.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Laoshi77

First, My previous post was in response to Brother John, not Mr Wade.

I agree with what you are saying, I use to train Ba Duann Gin and Tai Chi Qi Gong everyday and I felt very different. I was less concerned about hot or cold and I generally felt healthier. Great Qi revelations....no.

I just recently started the practice again, (Tai Chi Qi Gong and Post training) but it is to soon to tell.

Like a TCM OMD I know very well once said, "you can feel something is there, you just have no way to proving it. "

In response to Mr Wade, As I previously posted there is currently no way of proving internal Qi. However there is a way to prove external Qi, and External Qi is not something I would be able to demonstrate. It takes a very long time and a lot of training to have it. We are not talking the run of the mill or even the dedicated practioner, we are talking monks such as Shaolin, Quanzhen sect Daoist or Zhengyi Daoists.

Qi Gong training although it appears simple, is not. It takes a lot of dedication over a long period of time.

 

[Laoshi77]

Xue Sheng, my post was due to the one by Rick; in which he commented about not believing in Qi, which suggests merely that and implies no more.

Also...

Once someone shows me I will believe and start developing my CHI.

...on this statement i would say that you cannot be shown anything that you are subjective about, you must simply do the practice, thus experiencing it for yourself objectively.

And yes, Xue Sheng, i would agree with you, that Qi Gong meditation appears simple but is also very complicated for some people.

Best wishes.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Once someone shows me I will beleve and start developing my CHI.
V/R

Rick

Everyone is entitled to believe what he or she wishes, and who is to say what is right. But There are a lot of things in science that cannot be seen that are excepted as scientific fact, dark matter, cosmic strings, heavy matter, etc. And there are things now that are accepted by science that were once thought to be bunk, Plate tectonics, Quantum Physics, flight, and the Earth rotating around the sun, black holes, etc.

Equally there are now things that are known to be wrong that were once thought of a scientific fact, the earth as the center of the universe, phlogiston, the starry sphere, etc.

As mentioned there are people working to developed equipment to sense QI. Or as Dr Yang compares Qi to Ohms law, energy and nerve impulses, which are electric.

I have seen a lot of things I cannot explain, but that does not mean they are not real, or did not happen. Nor does it mean I am going to devote large amounts of time and money to prove or disprove them. However I tend to believe there is something to Qi, although I cannot prove it.

 

[celtic_crippler]

My 0.02

I don't think there is anything mystical or magical about Chi.

Chi is the result of bringing all 3 aspects of your being into sync. Mind, Body, and Spirit. Like cogs in a machine, when all 3 are in sync you operate at maximum efficiency.

Mind: Means you know what you need to do in your head. You understand the concept or principle behind the technique and know how to execute it.

Body: Your body mechanics are solid. Your movement is effecient and executed to maximum potential. You execute a technique physically correct.

Spirit: This area has the largest "gray" area and means different things to different people. To me, it's being focused, staying relaxed, and breathing properly. It's knowing the correct principles behind the technique.

When you tie all 3 together and they are in sync, you reach maximum efficiency.

I explained this concept to a student. Afterwards, he concentrated on a heavy bag. He was to execute a reverse punch. Simple enough right? He was focused on the target, he utilized proper body mechanics, and exhaled correctly upon execution. The bag came off the chain and hit the wall behind it. The student jumped back, startled by the effect. I just stood back clutching my gut 'cause I was laughin' my butt off at his discovery! LOL.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Well said.

 

[Rick Wade]

Not to change topics here but here is something weird about me.

I believe in God. but I have never been proven that there is a god.

I do have an open mind about Chi but when I think about Chi I think about no touch knock outs and Sholin Monks doing great feats of strength.

What is an example of chi and what has it done to improve your Martial Arts or everyday life?

V/R

Rick

 

[Xue Sheng]

Mr Wade

That’s a very good question and Qi gong has made me feel better and made my martial arts better. Although I do not rule out the possibility that you can achieve the same results in a different manner.

The martial arts I have practiced over the last 14 years have been internal. The 16 years prior to that I trained Jujitsu and Taekwondo. But I switched to Tai Chi, Xingyi and Bagua. Currently all I practice are internal arts, Tai Chi is soft, Xingyi is soft-hard and I believe Bagua is soft-hard as well, but I could be wrong about Bagua, currently I only do Tai Chi.

When I practiced Qi Gong I did notice that I was not bothered by very hot days or very cold days. I also was more relaxed, slept better and I was able to generate more explosive power, I was able to root better and had better balance. I did not get sick, even when everyone I knew had some sort of illness. I do not consider any of mystical, I was able to concentrate better, relax easier and I was breathing better, all of which would make me healthier.

If you read anything, or know anything about Yiquan, it is big on post training, also not for mystical reasons. It is to train you to be able to relax. This type of relaxation is needed immediately before and immediately after a defensive move or attack. It allows you to move faster, generate power faster, generate greater power and reduces the chance of injury.

As for the large and small circle circulation of Qi Gong, all I can tell you is I feel something, or should say I felt something. I am not at that level anymore. And even when I did much more Qi Gong, I was just starting to understand large circulation.

Currently I am starting Tai Chi Qi Gong again and I am doing standing post training. I must admit I have neglected the Qi Gong side for a few years now, and I regret it.
But since I have been doing Qi Gong, lately my form has gotten better, and my legs are stronger. This could be Qi, or it could be the movements strengthen my legs, or both. I tend to believe both.

I am currently practicing Post, Rocking Qi Gong, Stance training and moving (walking) Qi Gong, and a Qi Gong my Tai Chi teacher (Sifu Chu) learned from his Teacher (Tung Ying Chieh). And I am starting to feel better, even though I get up at 5:30 in the morning to do Qi Gong.