The Existence of Chi

[Xue Sheng]

Mr. Wade

As if I haven't already typed enough.

You mentioned Shaolin. They are capable of amazing things; some are from just constant hard training some are from Qi training. You can also see amazing things done by Chinese Daoist Priest as well. However this level I do not think is attainable by myself or any other part time practitioner. These people train martial arts and meditation (Qi) virtually 24/7 to attain that level. As I mentioned previously what is very impressive is Shaolin demonstration of external Qi. Put a spear point against their throat and push, and watch the spear bend and the spear point NOT pierce the throat. This is external Qi Gong at a very high level. And any martial artist can attain it, if they train as hard and as long. External Qi is easy to prove and demonstrate, internal is almost impossible to prove an hard to demonstrate

Now I am fairly certain I will never attain that level of Qi by training an hour or 2 a day 5 to 6 days a week and training Tai Chi forms and applications 1 to 2 hours a day 5 to 6 days a week Like everyone else I have a job, family and responsibilities, all of which take much concentration all by themselves.

OK, I think I'm done rambling on and on and on now.

 

[Laoshi77]

What is an example of chi and what has it done to improve your Martial Arts or everyday life?

I would echo the sentiments by Xue Sheng.

The martial arts are to balance the individual, both physically and spiritually, in this sense they should be holistic.

If you spend too much time working on the physical techniques of martial arts one will expend too much energy. Internal work or Qi Gong meditation is a way to accumulate energy and revitalise. It is thought best to spend 40% of your time training and 60% in cultivation.

Personally, the benefits i have received from Qi Gong practice are that: i never feel tired, i never catch colds, and in reference to martial arts; techniques become so much more powerful. A common proverb states that nurturing the qi is for health; manipulating the qi is for martial arts.

Best wishes,

 

[Rick Wade]

Personally, the benefits i have received from Qi Gong practice are that: i never feel tired, i never catch colds,

These are incredible statements are you saying that you NEVER feel tired
never catch a cold. If that is the case please tell me where in Honolulu, HI I can find an instructor.

R/

Rick

 

[Rick Wade]

Mr Wade


When I practiced Qi Gong I did notice that I was not bothered by very hot days or very cold days. I also was more relaxed, slept better and I was able to generate more explosive power, I was able to root better and had better balance. I did not get sick, even when everyone I knew had some sort of illness. I do not consider any of mystical, I was able to concentrate better, relax easier and I was breathing better, all of which would make me healthier.

Kenpo has improved my Basketball ( I can box out better with proper stance) and just everyday living. But I still get sick. I am not buying it. Are you guys saying you don't get sick at all no colds, coughs or anything? That is just simply amazing to me I just don't understand it. In my mind that is superhuman.

If you read anything, or know anything about Yiquan, it is big on post training, also not for mystical reasons. It is to train you to be able to relax. This type of relaxation is needed immediately before and immediately after a defensive move or attack. It allows you to move faster, generate power faster, generate greater power and reduces the chance of injury.

Which I don't that why I am engaging in this disgusion. What is post training?


I agree that you will not convince me over the net about CHI, KI or QI please let me know of a Master in Honolulu, HI that can help. We have a huge Asian influence here it shouldn't be hard to find one. However I haven't been able to find one yet that could convince me. Maybe I haven't looked hard enough who knows?

V/R

Rick

 

[Xue Sheng]

Mr. Wade

Of course you don’t believe in Qi, you’re in Honolulu what on earth would you need it for ;^)

As for being superman, I am not faster than a speeding bullet. I am not more powerful than a locomotive. I am not able to leap tall buildings in a single bound. And if you ever do see me in the sky it would be in a plane or I truly hope I am wearing a parachute. And finally, I am not impervious to bullets.

I am not surprised that because you do Kenpo that it affects other things in your life. Any martial art practiced by a good martial artist would.

Do you have to learn to coordinate your breathing with punch and kicks? Are there katas you need to learn which also include breath training? If you are sparing and hold your breath would it affect your performance? If you breath completely out of sync with your martial arts training or basketball does you think it would make you feel run down, exhausted, weaker and thereby make you more susceptible to infections such as cold and flu? If you have a lot of nights of interrupted sleep do you think that would make your immune system weaker and make you more susceptible to infections?

I believe no matter what you want to call it (Chi, Ki, Qi, Focus or breath training), if you are truly practicing a martial art, you are already training Qi. Where do you think the yelling before a strike in most Japanese systems of martial arts comes from?

I am not saying Qi Gong training is some sort of magical or mystical thing. I am saying it can help. As for getting or not getting sick, let me reword that. I did not get as sick as compared to before I trained Qi Gong (ergo not Superman). If someone got a bad cold or the flu, and I was around them a lot, I would not get sick, I might get a scratchy throat and a cough, but I it would only last a day or two as opposed to them being very sick for a week. Was this because of Qi Gong training and moving energy, maybe? Was this because Qi Gong training trained me how to breath better, concentrate better, and relax more, most definitely.

As for Yiquan, it comes from Xingyi and post training is, (in the beginning), standing quietly and using visualization to become more relaxed and aware of what you are physically feeling. It is for all intensive purposes, standing Qi Gong training. Basically the premise is to start training your body to stay relaxed so when needed, you respond and then relaxing almost immediately.

“A Master in Honolulu”, I live on the right coast (as opposed to the left) where it is currently cold, cloudy and possibly going to snow. The only person I know of in Hawaii, and I am not sure if they are in Honolulu, that would know about Qi is a member of the Tung family. That would be a Tai Chi school either teaching Yang or Dong style. Master Tung Ying Chieh’s son opened a school there and his grandson may still teach there. But I am sure there are others, Chinese that are very good at such things, martial arts included, rarely advertise it.

But I doubt you will find the proof you claim to seek; you are already thoroughly convinced it does not exist. But I applaud you effort, although I feel you are just looking for additional proof to support what you already believe to be fact.

Believe it or not, this is the short version of my original response.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

My understanding is that Qi Gong, as well as other chi/ki/etc training will help keep your body in balance, thereby helping to keep the cobwebs away, the immune system running at peak levels, etc.

Why is it easier to get sick if one is out of shape, than when one is in shape? I recently read an article that stated 40 minutes of quality meditation a day can keep your stress levels down, and your energy levels up. It might also help keep you healthier during cold seasons. It makes sense, as if you're stressed and worn out, you are more prone to injury.

To me, it's like warming up before a work out, and stretching afterwards. It's all the 'little things' that add up to keep you fitter, faster, and functional.

 

[celtic_crippler]

I must not have any Chi 'cause I feel like crap right now! LOL.

In all seriousness though, meditation is effective. Taking 15-30 minutes a day to sit quitely and visualize things you want to accomplish (whether it's MA related or just day-to-day stuff like performing your job or school related) can drastically improve your performance.

 

[Rick Wade]

Mr. Wade

Of course you don’t believe in Qi, you’re in Honolulu what on earth would you need it for ;^)

Believe me I could use some chi in my life right now.

I believe no matter what you want to call it (Chi, Ki, Qi, Focus or breath training), if you are truly practicing a martial art, you are already training Qi. Where do you think the yelling before a strike in most Japanese systems of martial arts comes from?

I agree some thing have been carried over from the old dys and have lost their meaning through time.

I am not saying Qi Gong training is some sort of magical or mystical thing. I am saying it can help. As for getting or not getting sick, let me reword that. I did not get as sick as compared to before I trained Qi Gong (ergo not Superman). If someone got a bad cold or the flu, and I was around them a lot, I would not get sick, I might get a scratchy throat and a cough, but I it would only last a day or two as opposed to them being very sick for a week. Was this because of Qi Gong training and moving energy, maybe? Was this because Qi Gong training trained me how to breath better, concentrate better, and relax more, most definitely.

THAT I can wrap my head around.

As for Yiquan, it comes from Xingyi and post training is, (in the beginning), standing quietly and using visualization to become more relaxed and aware of what you are physically feeling. It is for all intensive purposes, standing Qi Gong training. Basically the premise is to start training your body to stay relaxed so when needed, you respond and then relaxing almost immediately.

Intresting it sounds like You and I are not that far apart you concentrate on internal and I concentrate on brutality.

“A

Master in Honolulu”, I live on the right coast (as opposed to the left) where it is currently cold, cloudy and possibly going to snow. The only person I know of in Hawaii, and I am not sure if they are in Honolulu, that would know about Qi is a member of the Tung family. That would be a Tai Chi school either teaching Yang or Dong style. Master Tung Ying Chieh’s son opened a school there and his grandson may still teach there. But I am sure there are others, Chinese that are very good at such things, martial arts included, rarely advertise it.

I will definately check it out.

But I doubt you will find the proof you claim to seek; you are already thoroughly convinced it does not exist. But I applaud you effort, although I feel you are just looking for additional proof to support what you already believe to be fact.

I am not convinved that it doesn't exist. I just haven't found anyone to convince me of it's existance. I believe in pressure points. I don't believe in no touch knockouts.

Not directed to you but here is another point: I don't like mystic stuff If a person has a logical explination just tell me "I don't want to tell you" don't say it is chi. because there are three types of people that practice chi.

1. most of the people: They just say Chi they don't practice it much less they don't understand what they are talking about.

2. Far fewer people: That truley understand Chi and are thourthy convinced of its power.

and unfortunately the first people are the ones I always run into at seminars and tournaments.

V/R

Rick

 

[Xue Sheng]

I am not convinved that it doesn't exist. I just haven't found anyone to convince me of it's existance. I believe in pressure points. I don't believe in no touch knockouts. Rick

Mr. Wade
I resend my following statement and I apologize for it.

"But I doubt you will find the proof you claim to seek; you are already thoroughly convinced it does not exist."

I hope you find what you are looking for.

I practice Qi Gong, I am not sure I fully understand it, but there is something there, or at least I believe there is something there I am trying to figure out.

As previously mentioned a professor of Qi Gong at Beijing University is trying to develop some sort of equipment to measure internal Qi because he too believes that most people that claim they have high levels of it are lying.

I have been involved in many a conversation about Qi and I have walked away form most of them. Once it crosses the line into mysticism, I leave. I do not believe in no touch knockouts either. 1-inch punch yes, boot to the head ok, Qin na lock certainly, those can knock a person out. And most unfortunately I also discovered, many years ago, walking head on into a hydraulic lift can do the same thing.

Shaolin Priests (the life time version not the 7 year monk, although either could easily knock me out) are very versed in Qi training. Taoist priests are as well, but I have never heard either claim they can knock you out by looking at you, at least not from a reliable source.

I have read several books and articles on Qi and the two points of view I seem to like best compare it to either the firing of neurons in the body’s nervous system or the endocrine system. I like these comparisons; they are a bit more concrete. Also not to get weird, Quantum Physics and Tibetan Buddhism also share similarities in much the same way as Qi and these body systems do.

 

[Makalakumu]

It is entirely possible that chi is not real in the physical sense. It may only exist in our minds...which is another type of existence entirely. Thus it would be completely untestable by scientific methods (this, incidentally, is also how I view the concept of God).

The fact that someone believes in this concept gives it power. Chi as an internal/mental phenomenon and its effects via biofeedback are definitely plausible.

 

[Xue Sheng]

upnorthkyosa
Once you name something it changes.

Mr. Wade

I do not know if it is still there, but if it was they might be able to give you a better definition of Qi or Ki in this case, assuming they have stayed with tradition.

"Daihonzan Chozen-ji/International Zen Dojo in Honolulu"

But this is Zen and Zen practitioners are very good at answering questions with questions.

Also I just found

Dong Tai Chi Chuan School - Oahu Classes
http://www.dongtaichi.com/Grand_Master_Dong/oahu/

This is Master Tung's Grandson, I do not know him, but my tai chi teacher was a student of Master Tung and he knew master Tung’s son very well. My teacher treats Qi in a very matter of fact way, no mysticism involved.

 

[Rick Wade]

I will be there this week and i will give you guys feed back I will hold true to my promise and keep an open mind.

I LOVE MT who knows I might be on a new path.

V/R

Rick

 

[Makalakumu]

Once you name something it changes.

Perhaps, perhaps not. The name is what makes something like chi something. I would wager that there is absolutely no evidence that chi existed before it was named.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Perhaps, perhaps not. The name is what makes something like chi something. I would wager that there is absolutely no evidence that chi existed before it was named.

True, as for the wager, I will have to research that one a bit and get back to you. What little I know about the Chinese Language suggests that it may have had a different name in ancient times. It certainly had a different character to represent it.
Also just to clarify, I am talking about what is referred to as internal Qi in Chinese martial arts not external Qi.

However my point was that once you name something, some else, usually a whole bunch of someone else’s try and define it.
That is what has been going on in this discussion for the most part.

And different people have different definitions based on their experience, not uncommon in something such as internal Qi. Also once defined emotion get attsched to the meaning. "Qi Gong" the words can either make you relax or enrage you or have no effect what so ever. etc. This is what I mean by it changes.

There is a quote somewhere from Taoism, Buddhism or Bruce Lee that says basically the same thing, but I currently cannot locate it. However that concept is talking about the emotion attached to a word.

 

[bignick]

Gozo Shioda defined Ki in his book, Aikido: The Master Course. I can't remember it off the top of my head but it's an explanation I do buy. If you get a chance, look through the book, I'll see if I can't get ahold of it and post a snippet.

 

[Xue Sheng]

bignick

Thank You, I would be very interested in see his definition.

Also there is a discussion of it from a western point of view in book by Forrest E. Morgan.

And if you are looking for a virtual text book on the subject look at Yang Jwing Ming's book on Qi

I shall have to look for Gozo Shioda book.

Happy Chinese New Year
T

 

[celtic_crippler]

The name is what makes something like chi something. I would wager that there is absolutely no evidence that chi existed before it was named.

By that logic things only exist if they possess a name. If man had not named the wind would that mean it did/does not exist?

 

[Xue Sheng]

By that logic things only exist if they possess a name. If man had not named the wind would that mean it did/does not exist?

Very nice response, very Zen, very Taoist, very appropriate.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Mr Wade i hope you go to th school mentioned and take the tim to stay there a while (studying for a period of time) to see if you are able to find what you seem to be seeking. If you enter with an open mind and give it a chance I feel you may discover something new to you. Please let us know how it goes

Happy New Year to All

 

[Makalakumu]

By that logic things only exist if they possess a name. If man had not named the wind would that mean it did/does not exist?

Yes it would have existed, because wind is a physical thing. Unless you can somehow show that chi is a physical thing that is testable in some way then it remains a subjective idea...formless until defined...exactly as I said.