The source of Chi, a Biological *and* metaphysical explanation?

[JesterX]

Before going to sleep, yesterday, I had that following thought:

Chi is the life energy... Chi is what makes us move...

The food we eat comes from the earth
Our cells generate heat
We drink water
We breathe oxygen

Earth + Fire + Water + Air = Chi

Look at the cellular aerobic respiration (According to the Krebs Cycle):

Glucose + Oxygen + Heat = Energy + Water + CO²

That how our cells generate their energy

What if we learn to voluntarely alter/augment the aerobic cycle to produce more energy?

What if we learn to produce it in another part of our body (dantian?) and make it transfer to another part?

I think we can elaborate on this.

 

[JesterX]

Hmmm... someone already thought about it before I:

http://www.naturalhealthweb.com/articles/JamesSLee2.html

I think he explains better than I...

 

[Empty Hands]

Glucose + Oxygen + Heat = Energy + Water + CO²

That how our cells generate their energy

What if we learn to voluntarely alter/augment the aerobic cycle to produce more energy?

What if we learn to produce it in another part of our body (dantian?) and make it transfer to another part?

Bah. The product of cellular respiration is the high energy molecule ATP. ATP is a hydrophilic molecule that remains bound inside the cell. It has a specific chemistry, means of use, and transport.

ATP is not an "energy field" or electricity or however you might think of chi. It cannot be channeled from one part of the body to another. To speak of a "blockage" of ATP would be absolute nonsense.

You will have to find your chi elsewhere.

 

[exile]

Let me follow up Empty Hand's great post—whose subtext, for those who missed it, is, don't try to discuss scientific matters (e.g., human biochemistry) before you actually understand the biology, chemistry and physics that are at issue—with a pointer to another excellent discussion of the topic, with the same objective: demystifying a topic that has has had more codswallop and irrational nonsense devoted to it than the Bermuda Triangle... and that's saying a lot. Redmond's piece contains an excellent general discussion of the question of verifiability, and just how heavy a burden the burden of proof really is. One thing is clear—junk science, crap science or just plain out-and-out non-science trying to masquerade as science is going to crash and burn every time as soon as someone who actually knows something about the topic devotes a little bit of time to explaining what's at issue.

 

[Thems Fighting Words]

Bah. The product of cellular respiration is the high energy molecule ATP. ATP is a hydrophilic molecule that remains bound inside the cell. It has a specific chemistry, means of use, and transport.

ATP is not an "energy field" or electricity or however you might think of chi. It cannot be channeled from one part of the body to another. To speak of a "blockage" of ATP would be absolute nonsense.

You will have to find your chi elsewhere.

Oh man. So does that mean I can no longer market my creatine supplement as a chi-control elixir? What a bummer. :wink2:

 

[Empty Hands]

Oh man. So does that mean I can no longer market my creatine supplement as a chi-control elixir? What a bummer. :wink2:

Sorry!

All is not lost, however. I have a wonderful investment opportunity for you. It is a special piece of real estate in the Brooklyn area...

 

[Thems Fighting Words]

Sorry!

All is not lost, however. I have a wonderful investment opportunity for you. It is a special piece of real estate in the Brooklyn area...

Just as long as its on a Dragon Line / Ley Line. Cus I can only throw chi balls when I'm on one of this Geological anomalies. I often throw Chi balls. Well as long as it's a Blue Moon in the sky and no-one is watching me.

Sorry JesterX for going off topic but if you're going to start relabbelling biological processes as soemthing meta-physical, this sort of critique is going to happen. If you want to believe in Chi, then hooray for you, but until someone comes up with a viable and replicatable experiment that proves it's existance, then most martial artists are going to be sceptical.

 

[exile]

Just as long as its on a Dragon Line / Ley Line. Cus I can only throw chi balls when I'm on one of this Geological anomalies. I often throw Chi balls. Well as long as it's a Blue Moon in the sky and no-one is watching me.

Yes—there's an excellent shot of you doing just that in your avatar! Now to the uninitiated, it might look like something else, something much more prosaic... but when the proper 'metaphysical' perspective is taken, it's clear that you have such a powerful aura that it causes the air around it to become opaque through astral ionization, making it look very much like a bowling ball!

Sorry JesterX for going off topic but if you're going to start relabbelling biological processes as soemthing meta-physical, this sort of critique is going to happen. If you want to believe in Chi, then hooray for you, but until someone comes up with a viable and replicatable experiment that proves it's existance, then most martial artists are going to be sceptical.

This is always going to be the problem—for many people, the simple, reductionist explanation just isn't satisfying. A lot of people have drawn to one or another branch of New Age-y/pseudo-Eastern mysticism/mystification by a kind of disappointment that the world runs in many ways like a vast machine, whose operations at the most minute level are non-deterministic but which, on any scale much larger than a molecule, behaves in a predictable (even if enormously complex) manner. People want more... what's that great phrase from one of Arthur Koestler's book titles? The Ghost in the Machine. I see this as part of the same longing that gives rise to fantasies of two thousand year old histories to modern Korean martial arts, or myths about the Shaolin Temple, or... the kind of stuff that's perfectly fine in the National Treasure or Indiana Jones movies, but has zippo to do with real history.

It's something that bears investigating—why it is that people seem to need to live in an 'enchanted' world, rather than the one they have. I'm not passing any judgment on the need itself, but when it starts turning things corresponding to well-understood natural processes into objects of mystical awe, the result is just more unnecessary bafflement, like taking a perfectly clear photo, deliberately blurring it via PhotoShop, and then oohing and ahhing at all the unseen forces there are all around us...

 

[JesterX]

Just as long as its on a Dragon Line / Ley Line. Cus I can only throw chi balls when I'm on one of this Geological anomalies. I often throw Chi balls. Well as long as it's a Blue Moon in the sky and no-one is watching me.

Funny thing, I'm usually able to turn myself invisible when no-one is watching me...

I think that "When no-one is watching me" is an important factor in this... ^_^

 

[JesterX]

Yes—there's an excellent shot of you doing just that in your avatar! Now to the uninitiated, it might look like something else, something much more prosaic... but when the proper 'metaphysical' perspective is taken, it's clear that you have such a powerful aura that it causes the air around it to become opaque through astral ionization, making it look very much like a bowling ball!



This is always going to be the problem—for many people, the simple, reductionist explanation just isn't satisfying. A lot of people have drawn to one or another branch of New Age-y/pseudo-Eastern mysticism/mystification by a kind of disappointment that the world runs in many ways like a vast machine, whose operations at the most minute level are non-deterministic but which, on any scale much larger than a molecule, behaves in a predictable (even if enormously complex) manner. People want more... what's that great phrase from one of Arthur Koestler's book titles? The Ghost in the Machine. I see this as part of the same longing that gives rise to fantasies of two thousand year old histories to modern Korean martial arts, or myths about the Shaolin Temple, or... the kind of stuff that's perfectly fine in the National Treasure or Indiana Jones movies, but has zippo to do with real history.

It's something that bears investigating—why it is that people seem to need to live in an 'enchanted' world, rather than the one they have. I'm not passing any judgment on the need itself, but when it starts turning things corresponding to well-understood natural processes into objects of mystical awe, the result is just more unnecessary bafflement, like taking a perfectly clear photo, deliberately blurring it via PhotoShop, and then oohing and ahhing at all the unseen forces there are all around us...

Depends... It doesn't *have* to me mystical in nature for someone like me, it just have to provide an edge.

Personally, I don't believe that you can heal someone with Chi or things like that...

But I truly believe that you can learn to change/alter your metabolism to be more efficient while doing physical stuff. However, placebos can cause the same thing. The human mind is really a wonderful machine ^_^.

 

[Flying Crane]

I believe it is absolutely inappropriate to try and equate qi with biological or electrical or other scientific processes.

I know that a lot of people are skeptical about qi. Personally, I believe that it does exist in all of us, but it is very subtle to the point that most people are simply unaware of it. It is also something that is its own thing, which modern science has not yet been able to identify or describe.

People who I trust have described it as something that can definitely be felt, and even controlled. The problem is that it takes a lot of training and focus to reach that point, especially the point of being able to control it. Most people never reach that point, most people remain oblivious to it, and they get along just fine that way. But it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Perhaps someday modern/Western science will be able to identify, measure, and describe qi. But that day has not yet come.

 

[bluekey88]

Here's the thing though...if Chi/ki/qi is something else...it is still bound by the rules we all must live by. These rules are essentially laid out in the formulas that make up what we know as newtonian, quantum and relativistic physics.

It is posssible there is some particale out there that's unknown and at this point unmeasureable. Z This particel could be what we refer to as "chi". Maybe it is an energy wave (although lgiht is both a particle and wave right? I'm not a physicist so bear with me). It would have to be a very small particle/wave. So small, in fact that it probably would not interact with any known particle. It woudl simple move past not really touching or effecting anything. Consequently, it wouldn't DO anything in the world.

THus, the idea that one could somehow consciously get one's body (for the mind is the brain and the brain is the body there is no seperation between them) to focus or control chi...it doesn;t interact with the particle that make p the brain/body.

So, chi coudl exist, and the fact that we cannot currently measure it doesn;t cahnge the fact that it might exist. however, the fact that we cannot measure it also means it probably doesn;t have much of an effect on the larger partiles that make up our reality.

In fact, most of the demonstrations I've seen of Chi have been no more than magic tricks (unbendable arm, unliftable body, bending spears wioth your neck, etc) or can be explained by standard phsyics and are in no way the result of some other unmeasurable physical force.

Personally, this sucks. I want to be able to work hard and have super powers that others don't have...that would be cool. The fact that others could also learn to harness these abilities with some work lend a certain lvoey feely egalitarianism to the myth as well.

Regular life is boring for most of us (for I/we sometimes lose track of hwo remarkable plain old boring reality is). It would be great to have chi balls, and ghosts, and alterante realities where we all act really bad and have goatees. But here we are...stuck. As a result, I've stopped trying to yearn so much for that which I cannot have and learn to apprecaite what is there. this is hard to do. But I find the practice to be of benefit.

Peace,
Erik

 

[Xue Sheng]

Book: The Root of Chinese Qigong

DVD: The Scientific Foundation of Chinese Qigong: A Lecture by Dr. Yang at The University of Massachusetts

 

[Ninjamom]

... the kind of stuff that's perfectly fine in the National Treasure or Indiana Jones movies, but has zippo to do with real history.

You mean ... that....wasn't .... real?????????

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

The problem is how to translate a Chinese word into English.

The best defination so far is energy.

So when we talk about human energy(Ren Qi in Chinese and TCM) what does that mean? In TCM there are many types of Qi. For example we have Ying Qi but in modern English it would translate as the nutrients taken from food(energy) Wei Qi would best be translated as the immune system.Yuan Qi which comes from birth would most likely be considered genes.

 

[exile]

You mean ... that....wasn't .... real?????????

:lol:

Well, I thought that it wasn't... but I have to admit, I've been getting weird messages, transmitted through the metal surfaces in my house, telling me not to be so skeptical.... :erg:

 

[Thems Fighting Words]

Yes—there's an excellent shot of you doing just that in your avatar! Now to the uninitiated, it might look like something else, something much more prosaic... but when the proper 'metaphysical' perspective is taken, it's clear that you have such a powerful aura that it causes the air around it to become opaque through astral ionization, making it look very much like a bowling ball!

:roflmao:

It's something that bears investigating—why it is that people seem to need to live in an 'enchanted' world, rather than the one they have. I'm not passing any judgment on the need itself, but when it starts turning things corresponding to well-understood natural processes into objects of mystical awe, the result is just more unnecessary bafflement, like taking a perfectly clear photo, deliberately blurring it via PhotoShop, and then oohing and ahhing at all the unseen forces there are all around us...

You evil man. You just killed like half a dozen fairies!
*starts clapping and chanting; "I do believe in fairies, I do believe in fairies"*

Funny thing, I'm usually able to turn myself invisible when no-one is watching me...
I think that "When no-one is watching me" is an important factor in this... ^_^

Well I'm really mysterious. And I mean REALLY mysterious.

It is posssible there is some particale out there that's unknown and at this point unmeasureable. Z This particel could be what we refer to as "chi". Maybe it is an energy wave (although lgiht is both a particle and wave right? I'm not a physicist so bear with me). It would have to be a very small particle/wave. So small, in fact that it probably would not interact with any known particle. It woudl simple move past not really touching or effecting anything. Consequently, it wouldn't DO anything in the world.

Once the tools are there maybe we'll be able to measure it. Just look at how studies of neutrinos have progressed.

 

[jarrod]

It's something that bears investigating—why it is that people seem to need to live in an 'enchanted' world, rather than the one they have.

i think the simple answer is because the world we live in often sucks, & the enchanted one is more fun. i believe in all sorts of goofy stuff simply because it may be true, & doesn't really hurt anything. speaking personally, it probably fills the void left by being abandoned by religion. it doesn't replace scientific knowledge, but the day the world doesn't contain any mystery is the day i leave. i think that for many people belief is a coping mechanism, & like most coping mechanisms it is all well & good until you take it to the extreme. so when i see a weird light in the sky, i might convince myself it's a ufo, just because it's fun & i'm not going to seriously investigate it anyway. but you're not going to see me railing against the government in an attempt to get them to disclose about area 51. there are too many other reasons to rail against the government.

anyway, i think there is something to chi based on my experiences with it. whether or not those experiences are psychosomatic or otherwise scientifically explainable doesn't really concern me at this time.

jf

 

[Aikicomp]

In fact, most of the demonstrations I've seen of Chi have been no more than magic tricks (unbendable arm, unliftable body, bending spears wioth your neck, etc) or can be explained by standard phsyics and are in no way the result of some other unmeasurable physical force.



Peace,
Erik

How would you explain two people (6' 200 lbs and 6'2 225lbs) not being able to lift one person (5'8 150 lbs) off the ground and one person (6' 200 lbs) with two hands who can not bend a person's (5'8 150 lbs) arm is a magic trick? What could that person do physically to prevent them from doing that? No offense, just curious as to your explanation of how it's done.

Michael

 

[bluekey88]

Once the tools are there maybe we'll be able to measure it. Just look at how studies of neutrinos have progressed.

My point being that we might eventually be able ot measure it...but the effects of said energy/particle will not/can't live up to the hype. Yeah, we can finally measure neutrino's, but they intereact with matter on such rare occassions...imagine what something even smaller would do.

I'm not denying that some of what is attributed to chi isn't true...jsu tthat the explanations are often more mundane and less mystical in the end.

Peace,
Erik