I was curious to know from instructors and school owners on people who come in to your school and you can tell, usually rather quickly if they have "natural talent" You know they exude potential. Heres the question in your experiences what is the ratio of talent Example: one in one hundred
Talented students
- Thread starter Kwanjang
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I'd say it very well could be 1 in 100 or greater.
My experience with the "natural" gifted &/or talented student is they really have to be challenged or they get bored quickly & leave. I started with my best friend who was a fast learner & gifted. I....wasn't. Everyone figured he'd do it forever & I'd give up. He quit after 6 months & I've been training for 26 years.
The American MA system isn't designed for the gifted or "natural" student. Belt tests are usually at regular intervals & at this belt we teach you "X" technique. Joe Lewis learned in Okinowa (sp?) & rose through the ranks quickly. Western boxing has the advantage for the "natural." There are only so many techniques one needs to learn. The rest is perfecting them & conditioning. A natural who is in condition has a shorter learning curve. "Rank" is not an issue. No one will say, "he's only been training 6 months. Why is he in with THAT guy?" The proof will be in the 3 minutes in between bells.
My experience with the "natural" gifted &/or talented student is they really have to be challenged or they get bored quickly & leave. I started with my best friend who was a fast learner & gifted. I....wasn't. Everyone figured he'd do it forever & I'd give up. He quit after 6 months & I've been training for 26 years.
The American MA system isn't designed for the gifted or "natural" student. Belt tests are usually at regular intervals & at this belt we teach you "X" technique. Joe Lewis learned in Okinowa (sp?) & rose through the ranks quickly. Western boxing has the advantage for the "natural." There are only so many techniques one needs to learn. The rest is perfecting them & conditioning. A natural who is in condition has a shorter learning curve. "Rank" is not an issue. No one will say, "he's only been training 6 months. Why is he in with THAT guy?" The proof will be in the 3 minutes in between bells.
Brian S
Purple Belt
I've seen students that were physically talented,but limited by their own arrogance. I've seen students that were not physically adept,but could listen and take direction. I prefer the ones that will listen and have the humility to learn despit their physicality. There are very few people like this out there.
The ratio of natural talent in anything is fairly constant at around 5%.
We have discussed before here at MT whether it is necessarily advantageous in martial arts to have a 'flair' for it from the start and it might be worth a dig through the search engine to see what we said then (which is not to imply that the subject isn't worth discussing again of course).
We have discussed before here at MT whether it is necessarily advantageous in martial arts to have a 'flair' for it from the start and it might be worth a dig through the search engine to see what we said then (which is not to imply that the subject isn't worth discussing again of course).
Sounds about right...
1 in 100 sounds about right but that alone dose not make them a good student. They must have the ability to understand what they are doing and have the "heart" to really lean. There is more to the arts than just doing the moves
- Thread Starter
- #7
it's been my experience the ones with talent- do NOT make the best "overall" students. Example I had on 15 year old whos talent and potentiel was off the chart. I was trying to help him with a kick, and he said, "I don't like doing that way" this was not the first time he had made a statement like this. Needless to say he isn't train at my school anymore. All I want to hear from a student I am trying to help is "YES SIR" Asking a question is one thing.
Actually that question doesn't make a lot of sense. You can have average talent at the 50th percentile, well above average, say at the 75th percentile, or superior talent at above the 90th percentile. Everyone here keeps mentioning the figure "one in a hundred" or 99th percentile. That's very good indeed, but still a long way from Olympic calibre, or professional sports level, as in the NFL, NBA or Major league baseball.
Regardless of how high you set the bar, I agree that true "naturals" tend to be impatient. Most skip around from style to style and eventually quit. And those who do stay in the MA won't be satisfied with being "second fiddle" for very long. They will probably end up staring their own organization, or maybe even their own style. And some will be quite good.
Most people with 'natural martial arts tallent' are simply athletic, either by conditioning, as I was when I began kendo, naturally (as is the case with my son), or both. When I was coming up through the colored belt ranks, a young man who was a family friend joined. He is a true natural, both for swordwork and for taekwondo. He has beautiful kicks and he has a keen interest in swords. So much so that he owned several and constantly worked with them, and according to him, developed his own style.
He joined the kendo class and we found that his own 'style' was simply lots and lots of fancy spins and twirls coupled with the occasional light cut, which if you are familiar with kendo, know will not count in a tournament. He chaffed at every direction given to him by GM Kim and Master Choi, and complained when he 'lost' in sparring. When he lost in his first tournament, he complained vociferously. "if it was a real sword fight, I'd have won!" No, we said, he wouldn't have. He'd never actually cut anything with a sword, and insisted that light taps were enough to sever limbs and disembowel an opponent. He did finally attend a cutting class and learned that we had been telling him the truth.
However, he also chaffed at not being able to use two swords. We don't teach nito until first dan. Funny thing, but once he attained the rank of first dan, he quit.
I don't miss him at class. He was a constant pain because he thought he was better than he was, confusing agility and manual dexterity with skill and experience. We all told him that he should take up sport fencing, where light little taps would count. He never did because he felt that sport fencing wasn't enough like 'real sword fighting.'
I still see him, and recently, he came by with bogu and shinai to 'spar.' He commented afterward that I'd really gotten better and that he could barely keep up. Well, it's been about three years since he quit. I don't know what he expected to happen. He seems to think that twirlling shinai and his swords about in the back yard and looking really good would make him better and that I'd still be at the same level I was three years ago. Not realistic.
He enjoyed sparring with me and we caught up on old times, grabbed some food and had a nice afternoon as two buddies with a shared interest but who don't train together. And I enjoyed it as well, but I often wonder how good he would have really been if he had continued on. He is definitely a natural, no question about it. Had he stayed on, he'd probably be the best kendoka in the school, maybe in the county. No joke. But his own agility, nimbleness and superb manual dexterity convinced him that he was too good to listen to legitamate masters who could have developed his raw tallent and helped him reach his potential.
Daniel
He joined the kendo class and we found that his own 'style' was simply lots and lots of fancy spins and twirls coupled with the occasional light cut, which if you are familiar with kendo, know will not count in a tournament. He chaffed at every direction given to him by GM Kim and Master Choi, and complained when he 'lost' in sparring. When he lost in his first tournament, he complained vociferously. "if it was a real sword fight, I'd have won!" No, we said, he wouldn't have. He'd never actually cut anything with a sword, and insisted that light taps were enough to sever limbs and disembowel an opponent. He did finally attend a cutting class and learned that we had been telling him the truth.
However, he also chaffed at not being able to use two swords. We don't teach nito until first dan. Funny thing, but once he attained the rank of first dan, he quit.
I don't miss him at class. He was a constant pain because he thought he was better than he was, confusing agility and manual dexterity with skill and experience. We all told him that he should take up sport fencing, where light little taps would count. He never did because he felt that sport fencing wasn't enough like 'real sword fighting.'
I still see him, and recently, he came by with bogu and shinai to 'spar.' He commented afterward that I'd really gotten better and that he could barely keep up. Well, it's been about three years since he quit. I don't know what he expected to happen. He seems to think that twirlling shinai and his swords about in the back yard and looking really good would make him better and that I'd still be at the same level I was three years ago. Not realistic.
He enjoyed sparring with me and we caught up on old times, grabbed some food and had a nice afternoon as two buddies with a shared interest but who don't train together. And I enjoyed it as well, but I often wonder how good he would have really been if he had continued on. He is definitely a natural, no question about it. Had he stayed on, he'd probably be the best kendoka in the school, maybe in the county. No joke. But his own agility, nimbleness and superb manual dexterity convinced him that he was too good to listen to legitamate masters who could have developed his raw tallent and helped him reach his potential.
Daniel
Deaf Smith
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Two of my students became nationaly ranked. They loved to spar, worked out like maniacs, and didn't mind getting hurt. But these two were NOT naturals. They were not gifted. Their technique did not look pretty and artistic.
On the other hand, one was exceptional. Scared the dickens out of not only my other students but when he went to my instructors school to test he scared them! Awsome kicks. Powerful and fast. He was red headed to.
But..... he never made black belt. Family problems, work, whatever, even with encourgment he dropped out. Made Red but not black.
When I find a student that is MOTIVATED (not the same as gifted), I simply allow them do double what everyone else is doing (after they gain some skill and time.) Same rank, no short cuts, but if they want, for every kick another student does, they do two. Others do one punch, they do two. As long as the technique is correct they can do more.
It's motivation I want, not 'gifted'. Someone who has the TB... that's 'True Believer' attitude. What is more, I'm a big believer in initiative. Self starting. Get there early, stretch, and do things to improve skills before the class starts. I hate seeing students mill around just waiting. What a waste.
If the student is both gifted and motivated, well the world is at their feet, but most people, gifted included, do just enough to get by in life.
Deaf
On the other hand, one was exceptional. Scared the dickens out of not only my other students but when he went to my instructors school to test he scared them! Awsome kicks. Powerful and fast. He was red headed to.
But..... he never made black belt. Family problems, work, whatever, even with encourgment he dropped out. Made Red but not black.
When I find a student that is MOTIVATED (not the same as gifted), I simply allow them do double what everyone else is doing (after they gain some skill and time.) Same rank, no short cuts, but if they want, for every kick another student does, they do two. Others do one punch, they do two. As long as the technique is correct they can do more.
It's motivation I want, not 'gifted'. Someone who has the TB... that's 'True Believer' attitude. What is more, I'm a big believer in initiative. Self starting. Get there early, stretch, and do things to improve skills before the class starts. I hate seeing students mill around just waiting. What a waste.
If the student is both gifted and motivated, well the world is at their feet, but most people, gifted included, do just enough to get by in life.
Deaf
Years ago, a schhol where I trained taught high school gym classes for the day. We taught basic punches, kicks & blocks. There was a high school kid (a Korean kid) in one of the gym classes who was a "natural" & impressed both us & his fellows classmates. He didn't show off, by any means, but he "picked up on everything" really quickly. The others in in class were like, "oh, he's just a natural athlete. He can do anything." My instructor took him aside & he admitted to her that he had trained since he was very small. He BEGGED her not to tell the others. He didn't want them to know.
Every once in awhile, there is humility with talent.
Every once in awhile, there is humility with talent.
I do not believe in Natural Talent but hard work with alot of sweat is needed to be great, both in the mind and the body.
This is a very important point. Standing around wasting training time is something in our group that we work out of people by example. It helps overcome the 'polite' inhibition that some have if they arrive before time and see one of the seniors already running through stuff.
If you're there and you're ready and you know a few kata then don't wait for others to be ready (or even turn up in extreme cases) get on with practising.
Absolutely right. And it's also on us as instructors to help build and maintain that motivation, as well. Stoke the fires as it were. I've noticed that with everyone, naturals and non-naturals, kids and adults, that I play a big factor in their motivation. I find their MOTIVES for training so I can better MOTIVATE them. At the lower ranks (and even at the higher ranks, frankly) motivation often needs to come from outside. This is harder with the naturals. Things get harder and they find it harder to motivate themselves or to allow themselves to be motivated. That's when I go over their MOTIVES and their goals, to see how I can help them.
- Thread Starter
- #15
Hey Terry, Just curious, Why don't believe in natural talent and whats more, potential. to help with my point, Would you agree Albert Einstein was considered a genius, and if so, why not genius in martial arts
I guess it would like this people have talent yes and some have god giving talent like in football. Some people just can run so they just teach them to hit a hile, no problem. In martial arts one need all the tools to be profecent, so they need the actual training to understand how to apply techniques and also how to deliver each techniques over and over again. Martial art is an ever changing product that takes years to fully ubderstand all of the concepts being tought. It is not like any other area of life, we strive everyday to be perfect knowing we can never be perfect.
hogstooth
Green Belt
In all my years of teaching I have only had one truely naturally talented student. All others had varying degrees of talent. Some have a natural athletic talent that helps but if you are talking about a individual that just picks up everything super quick and whos body and movements are built for the art I'd one. He now teaches and is still my best student.
zDom
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The base for those with a talent for martial arts may be 5 percent, but as for those who actually give martial arts a try, it may end up being even LESS than 1 percent.
And of THOSE, how many are willing to just trust the instructor, stick to the program, and put in the time in grade and time on the floor to truly develop their talent?
My thoughts are:
Off the top of my head, I recall three who had talent and are still active today;
One who had lots of talent, developed that talent, but has what seems to be a congenital problem that has reduced them to a shadow of their former self;
One who had talent, was in and out but let their natural ability get in the way of TRULY developing their talent, even though they are "active" today;
Easily a half dozen or more who I thought were poor students who, through perserverence, ended up being SOLID martial artists (even BETTER than those "with talent" in several cases);
and more than a DOZEN who had talent and quit — either right off the bat or after getting a few belts.
My conclusion?
When it all comes down to it, the "talent" for "sticking with it" ends up being a WHOLE lot more important than a natural aptitude for martial arts.
Talented students are fun to teach, but more often than not end up being a short-termers. Don't get too attached: they'll only break yer heart
And of THOSE, how many are willing to just trust the instructor, stick to the program, and put in the time in grade and time on the floor to truly develop their talent?
My thoughts are:
Off the top of my head, I recall three who had talent and are still active today;
One who had lots of talent, developed that talent, but has what seems to be a congenital problem that has reduced them to a shadow of their former self;
One who had talent, was in and out but let their natural ability get in the way of TRULY developing their talent, even though they are "active" today;
Easily a half dozen or more who I thought were poor students who, through perserverence, ended up being SOLID martial artists (even BETTER than those "with talent" in several cases);
and more than a DOZEN who had talent and quit — either right off the bat or after getting a few belts.
My conclusion?
When it all comes down to it, the "talent" for "sticking with it" ends up being a WHOLE lot more important than a natural aptitude for martial arts.
Talented students are fun to teach, but more often than not end up being a short-termers. Don't get too attached: they'll only break yer heart
Scott, you gave us the scoop on two of them, but what happened to the third?
Sad to hear about the first one though.
Daniel
Sad to hear about the first one though.
Daniel
zDom
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Ahhh: I wasn't clear. The second two are in addition to the three that are active today.
