Honor

[terryl965]

I was sitting here at my Dojang and it occurred to me Honor is all but gone from MA. I mean do we really see any MA'er given any other MA'er respect for the talents and honor them with kind and gentle words instead of belittleing every single person. I know with the age and the the knees and the back being beaten up on for nearly forty years, I myself is a meer image of my fighting skills some 25 years ago, do we see the training and knowledge one can bring from the years of hard cold sweet, working out in 100 degree wheather for the schools back then had no air. Do these young arrogant newbies have any ideal the way we would pile up in a vehicle and travel to the next event just to compete. Do they have any understanding of devotion to your school and your instructors. back in the days we would clean toliets if we had no monies for instruction and was willing to do anything just to be there to train. Where has the Honor gone from the Art, why has it left us, are we not deserving? I believe the Honor and respect one lack is due to system here in the States, we tell everybody there always right and if you they tell you your wrong leave and find someone that agrees with you.

I know alot of talented MA'ers from long ago that get so much flack for they are unable to be the man they was 25 years ago, students leave for another school because they have newer instructors that are Masters at the age of twenty, we has a society have given our Art to teenager with no honor and intigrity or respect for there teachers or there Art. The money hungry no talented frauds that run schools and say I was a state champion, well who cares, alot of state champion never had a matched so they won Gold and brag about it. I some times wonder why train someone for they will most likely turn on you down the road and society will let them forget about the Honor they was tought in the Dojang.

Terry Lee Stoker

 

[jdinca]

All you have to do is cruise some of the other martial arts discussion forums to prove your point. It seems that for the majority, "mind" and "spirit" are just quaint phrases from the old days, and "body" is all that matters. "Respect" is something that can only be earned in the ring and goes away once you're no longer competitive at that level. There's an acute lack of respect for anyone they disagree with or feel isn't as good as they are. They don't really care that all they're really doing is bringing dishonor upon themselves. Most of these people are young and full of testosterone. I think that the schools that only teach how to fight, or are only in it to make a buck are one of the root causes. I think our society is the biggest cause.

On the plus side, there are still plenty of schools out there that do teach the principles you illustrated. I think that they are in the minority, but they do exist. I think the reason we don't hear more about them is that they don't ascribe to the chest thumping, I'm badder than you attitude that seems to be so prevalent. To do so would bring dishonor on the school and is in conflict of the principles of mind, body and spirit.

I've only been involved in MA for 4 1/2 years. I started at 37. During that brief time, I've been busting my butt and the results, for me, have been very positive, in ALL aspects of martial arts. I decided a couple of years ago that I'm a "lifer" at my school, because once you get to the higher belt levels, physical movement is seen as the vehicle to improving the mind and the spirit and not the sole focus of training. Will I ever move like some of the kids? Nope, ain't going to happen. But I, or those who've been around a long time, or started as a middle aged adult do have something to offer that the young people don't, life experience. I think this is where the biggest impact can be made, when it's tied into MA training.

Don't give up, those students who understand what you're trying to teach them will stick with you and be the better for it. Those who don't, well it's their loss. By continuing to "walk the walk" we can make an impact on some of those we come in contact with and keep "honor" as something to be admired and aspired to. I don't see any other way to address it.

 

[IcemanSK]

Respect & Honor are at a premium everywhere in this world. It seems in my experience, that it Honor for "old timers" is still alive in boxing, tho. Older fighters & trainers are respected for what they did or who they "were."

It is sad to see, tho.

 

[cfr]

I never really thought about stuff like this, so my question is one of curiosity. Im not trying to piss anyone off or start a debate, Im just fairly ignorant to what you're talking about and curious. From your point of view, do you think that someone desrves respect just because they are a long time MA'er? Im not saying I disagree, but dont really know that I do agree either, if that makes sense. To say I have respect for someone just because they are a long time MA'er may be full of ignorance. Perhaps that MA'er is using his wife as a punching bag. Perhaps he is a rude, uncaring, obscene person. Perhaps he uses his skills to inflict harm on others. Perhaps he is a criminal. Now please nobody tell me that these would be rare circumstances for a lifetime MA'er. I concede to that point and agree. But it does happen. I guess I'd be curious to know how the lifetime MA'er is living OUTSIDE of the dojo, where it really counts.

 

[OnlyAnEgg]

Much of current society, western society anyway, is geared to the teen population. It's no surprise that youth is now seen as expert. The sad truth, though, is it is all marketing. It's not that age and experience are not valuable; it's simply that it's no longer a valid demographic. The pendulum swing will arc back, at some point. It always does.

I, myself, respect those with more experience than me. I, also, attempt to teach my children to respect the same. Like Terry, though, I feel I am in a minority.

 

[jdinca]

I never really thought about stuff like this, so my question is one of curiosity. Im not trying to piss anyone off or start a debate, Im just fairly ignorant to what you're talking about and curious. From your point of view, do you think that someone desrves respect just because they are a long time MA'er? Im not saying I disagree, but dont really know that I do agree either, if that makes sense. To say I have respect for someone just because they are a long time MA'er may be full of ignorance. Perhaps that MA'er is using his wife as a punching bag. Perhaps he is a rude, uncaring, obscene person. Perhaps he uses his skills to inflict harm on others. Perhaps he is a criminal. Now please nobody tell me that these would be rare circumstances for a lifetime MA'er. I concede to that point and agree. But it does happen. I guess I'd be curious to know how the lifetime MA'er is living OUTSIDE of the dojo, where it really counts.

My position has always been this, and not just on martial arts. There's a certain amount of respect that is due to the position, i.e. sensei, sifu, Master, Grand Master, etc. Respect for the person IN that position has to be earned.

I will treat someone above me with respect until they prove to me that they're a turd. In that situation, I will still respect the position they're in but I won't respect them.

 

[Dalum]

Just going on the items in this thread I can say this...

I'm not as old as some of the long standing practitioners in the world or even on this site. I am, however, not some n00b. I find myself to be right in the middle. I also hold the "old ways" over being flashy and showing some bling. I've never been impressed with someone that can scream at the top of their lungs, misplacing their power just for some points in a kata competition. When I instruct, I try to give all comers something to take with them. All centering around Respect, Honor, Focus and Discipline. Many of the people that come under my wing are much younger than I. This is the best time to help break the preconcieved notions that you earn respect and honor by how many wins you have in the ring and if you don't have a professional standing then you are not worthy of respect. I hope this is just a normal rotation of history and it all comes back, full circle. We sure do need it to come back soon.

(Wow, you know... Now that I think of it, I've been doing this stuff for 21 years now. Dang!)

 

[terryl965]

I never really thought about stuff like this, so my question is one of curiosity. Im not trying to piss anyone off or start a debate, Im just fairly ignorant to what you're talking about and curious. From your point of view, do you think that someone desrves respect just because they are a long time MA'er? Im not saying I disagree, but dont really know that I do agree either, if that makes sense. To say I have respect for someone just because they are a long time MA'er may be full of ignorance. Perhaps that MA'er is using his wife as a punching bag. Perhaps he is a rude, uncaring, obscene person. Perhaps he uses his skills to inflict harm on others. Perhaps he is a criminal. Now please nobody tell me that these would be rare circumstances for a lifetime MA'er. I concede to that point and agree. But it does happen. I guess I'd be curious to know how the lifetime MA'er is living OUTSIDE of the dojo, where it really counts.

Let me try to explain we give Honor to teachers, Volunteerss, service men and women. Why is it in MA a teacher has to prove there skill pver and over once they hit a age where they cannot or should not do certain techs for there kneee being blown out 500 times and there back is gone form consist pounding one takes.
A teacher of Martial Arts should be given some kind of respect from the younger guys coming up, not always putting them down for they are unable to do a 540 kick anymore.
Respect should be given from the start of a person walking in your school, then in time they understand why they should respect you, after years of training some one they leave said school branch out and never give any respect back to the teacher that took the time to teach them there skills.
That is all I'm saying.
Terry

 

[cfr]

Why is it in MA a teacher has to prove there skill pver and over once they hit a age where they cannot or should not do certain techs for there kneee being blown out 500 times and there back is gone form consist pounding one takes.
A teacher of Martial Arts should be given some kind of respect from the younger guys coming up, not always putting them down for they are unable to do a 540 kick anymore.
Terry

I have no idea why they have to prove it over and over... In fact I didnt even know that ever occured. Nor did I know anyone put others down for not being able to do a 540 kick anymore.

 

[Marginal]

A teacher of Martial Arts should be given some kind of respect from the younger guys coming up, not always putting them down for they are unable to do a 540 kick anymore.

Sheesh. If not for the physical aspect, I still have no trouble respecing an instructor that's been at it for 20+ years. You almost always see knowledge, enthusiasm, and perserverance at minimum coming from these people.

It's pathetic when people can't recognize that, or think they're accomplishing something useful by endlessly running such people down while hiding behind their keyboards etc.

 

[Eternal Beginner]

Yes, I have noticed considerable lack of respect by some of the the younger MA'ists that I have met. They mocked men who taught them by commenting on their 'less than svelte' figures and even on their occupations! To me, these same men gave willingly, without any compensation, of their time to teach the younglings and got thanked by mockery and derision. Sad but true.

When these same youngsters have a few more gray hairs, a few more pounds, and aches and pains I think they will find themselves far less judgemental.

 

[TigerWoman]

Honor is making the tough choices and making an honest effort to try to do the right thing. Can't always be right, so honor also includes saying your sorry with your heart not just the words... I figure an individual either has honor or he doesn't. Once I hear someone took the easy road... it diminishes their honor in my opinion. You Terry have made alot of tough choices over your career in martial arts, I'm sure. And that shows honor to the people it matters to.

Now respect is another thing. Respect-higher respect has to be earned. Terry you have earned it by being in your art for 40 years and the fact that you attained master rank. You earned it way before then. We can't be doing 540's until we die. Its bad to get old but that's just part of life. The young ones don't realize that someday it will be them that will have the bad knees and will have to ease back a bit. Too bad that they don't have that kind of wisdom to see into the future. And they too will want respect when they get to that age. I guess I grew up when it was proper to give your seat to the older person. Nor was it proper to show disrespect to an older person in any way, you just kept your mouth shut. That one old guy who was badmouthed could be the banker who denies your house loan. You just never know when it comes back to bite you. Those values aren't really taught any more it seems. This is in our entire society not just in martial arts. Everyone wants everything fast, and being rude, disrespectful comes along with that. I think that is one of they reasons we try to ingrain the tenets of TKD into our students. At least have them thinking about it. But we can't control our students completely because by the time we get them sometimes, they have alot of their values in place. We just reinforce them. TW

 

[Sapper6]

Let me try to explain we give Honor to teachers, Volunteerss, service men and women. Why is it in MA a teacher has to prove there skill pver and over once they hit a age where they cannot or should not do certain techs for there kneee being blown out 500 times and there back is gone form consist pounding one takes.
A teacher of Martial Arts should be given some kind of respect from the younger guys coming up, not always putting them down for they are unable to do a 540 kick anymore.
Respect should be given from the start of a person walking in your school, then in time they understand why they should respect you, after years of training some one they leave said school branch out and never give any respect back to the teacher that took the time to teach them there skills.
That is all I'm saying.
Terry

MA teachers, just like any other occupation you mentioned above, should not necessarily expect honor based upon what they do or how long they've done it.

honor should come from within. you know what you have done personally. why be so shallow to be offended when someone doesn't automatically recognize this fact? most of that comes from the fact most of the people you are most likely referring to are young, ignorant, youth that wouldn't know the definition of respect if it slapped them in the face.

what actions should bestow honor upon someone? i would agree that teaching the combat arts for any long period of time should suffice. it's a community service. a service that would one day save the life and well-being of someone who was on the receiving end of your service. there's much honor in that. we shouldn't feel like we need to be reminded of that by others. take a look at what you've done personally over the years and decide for yourself if you deserve accollades for what you've done.

honor isn't based upon physical attributes or action either. physical shape and activity certainly does not disqualify one from being honorable. i can think of a ton of people with physical handicaps that are some of the most honorable people in American history. why should the lack of ability to perform a simple kick be a disqualifying factor? that's absurd.

on the other hand, don't expect the person walking in off the street to immediately show you respect. he doesn't know a thing about you. to him, you must prove yourself. he's about to spend his hard earned cash for your instruction; instruction that someday may help him out of a jam. he's gotta have reassurance that you aren't BS. is it fair? nope, but it's certainly to be expected. especially considering the number of BS martial arts schools that exist. if you are hoping to make a living (even a small part) by teaching martial arts, you have something to prove to the potential customer that can easily take his wallet down the road. your job is to instill in that potential student the fact that you are what you teach, your **** works, and you stand behind your product. there's much honor in that.

cheers.

 

[evenflow1121]

Honor is making the tough choices and making an honest effort to try to do the right thing. Can't always be right, so honor also includes saying your sorry with your heart not just the words... I figure an individual either has honor or he doesn't. Once I hear someone took the easy road... it diminishes their honor in my opinion. You Terry have made alot of tough choices over your career in martial arts, I'm sure. And that shows honor to the people it matters to.


I certainly can not argue with that. Terry so long as there are guys like you out there the world will be a much better place. Honor is earned through making the 'right decision' which more often than not is a painful decision. It is always easier to take the easy road, but deep down inside, the student and the teacher know they got exactly what they bargained for. You are right Terry, while I have not been in the martial arts as long as you have, I can still remember a time some 20+ years ago even when achieving a BB was not the ultimate goal but rather learning and appreciating the system through blood, sweat, and tears. Hang in there man, its guys like you that we need in this world, people that still believe in doing the righ thing, dont lose hope.

 

[cfr]

on the other hand, don't expect the person walking in off the street to immediately show you respect. he doesn't know a thing about you. to him, you must prove yourself. he's about to spend his hard earned cash for your instruction; instruction that someday may help him out of a jam. he's gotta have reassurance that you aren't BS. is it fair? nope, but it's certainly to be expected. especially considering the number of BS martial arts schools that exist. if you are hoping to make a living (even a small part) by teaching martial arts, you have something to prove to the potential customer that can easily take his wallet down the road. your job is to instill in that potential student the fact that you are what you teach, your **** works, and you stand behind your product. there's much honor in that.

cheers.

Well put. We read all the time on this site about Mc Dojos, but then its also said that we should show respect just because some guy we dont know from Adam claims he's been in the arts for a long period of time. Does that really make sense? What about all the self proclaimed grand masters who are selling instructional videos that nobody has ever heard of? Should we have honor and respect for them?

 

[Sapper6]

Well put. We read all the time on this site about Mc Dojos, but then its also said that we should show respect just because some guy we dont know from Adam claims he's been in the arts for a long period of time. Does that really make sense? What about all the self proclaimed grand masters who are selling instructional videos that nobody has ever heard of? Should we have honor and respect for them?

agreed 100%. knowledge isn't deserving of honor...action is.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

Respect & Honor are at a premium everywhere in this world. It seems in my experience, that it Honor for "old timers" is still alive in boxing, tho. Older fighters & trainers are respected for what they did or who they "were."

It is sad to see, tho.

Yes, I hate to say so but there is more respect in boxing gyms that I've visited (or trained in) than in many martial arts schools these days. The head coach could be 65 years old, but heaven help the young kid who disrespects him. To this day (were he still alive), I couldn't imagine calling my first boxing coach by his first name. Not that it would be disrespect to call your coach by their first name, particularly if they request it, rather because he didn't and his wishes on the matter would be as respected as he was.

I also think the MMA phenomenon has done much in its way to damage traditional respect and courtesy. This doesn't mean I'm against, MMA, don't get me wrong, it is just hard to take the know-it-all 19 year old MMA student who mouths off that "Karate sucks".

 

[Jonathan Randall]

I know with the age and the the knees and the back being beaten up on for nearly forty years, I myself is a meer image of my fighting skills some 25 years ago, do we see the training and knowledge one can bring from the years of hard cold sweet, working out in 100 degree wheather for the schools back then had no air. Terry Lee Stoker

Not necessarily so. To the contrary, I believe you would be far, far more likely to be able to use your martial arts effectively to defend yourself or your family than a young 22 year old dynamo. Why? Because, and the reason young experts weren't called masters until recently, you have the life experience to avoid, evaluate and manage dangerous situations far better. Also, just because an older master of let's say 65 years of age couldn't get in the ring with a 25 year old expert, doesn't mean the master wouldn't win a real altercation against that 25 year old. In fact, my money would be on the more experienced master because there is so much else that goes into deciding a real-life physical confrontation than simply strengh, skill and reflexes.

 

[Kacey]

I would agree with pretty much everything in this thread - respect, like honor, must be earned; too many young people today see honor as a right rather than a privilege. As a middle school teacher as well as TKD instructor, I know a lot of kids (and adults, if it comes to that) who think they have the right to be rude to whomever they please - but no one has the right to be rude to them. It's mostly the middle school students; the TKD students see the respect shown by members of the class to each other, and either pick up the habit quickly, or leave because, in the words of one such student "this last name sh** is bogus" (said student was 14 years old).

For myself, there are few people I have more respect for than my instructor and his instructor, and several of the other senior members of my organization. These are people I have known, in some cases since I started in 1987 (geez... now I feel really old), who have continually worked to better the art (in this case, TKD) for themselves, their students, and their students' students - not for material gain, but for the good of the art. They, like several extremely talented teachers I work with, have earned the highest respect I can bestow, and the greatest honor I can give them is to support them in their efforts - and hopefully, teach others by that example.

Today's society (especially in the US) is so focused on self-gratification, that many people do not understand anything else - that's why so many high schools are beginning to require community service as a graduation requirement... but once it becomes an obligation, the lesson of service is lost, a paradox I'm not sure how to resolve.

 

[terryl965]

agreed 100%. knowledge isn't deserving of honor...action is.

So Knowledge means nothing to some OK lets change it to a Baseball Coach does he reserve to be honor and respected for his years ofg service or wait we can have no respect for him because he cannot have the same motorskills he once had PLEASE ARE some of you even reading what is being said.

I MYSELF DO NOT CARE WHAT OTHER PEOPLE BELIEVE IN ME I know what I can do just using it as a example please do not make this about me, My skills was proven over forty years devoted to the Art of Martial Arts. This is about honor and respect for those teachers that there students leave and never give proper respect tp there Master and instructors, I have been on both side f the fence here with people I have trained and believe me the ones that have fully understood there training respect me and the ones that have taken everything for granted is out there trying to prove to the masses they are reserving of there knowledge.

This thread is about honor and respect for the Master and instructore who have given and given and never ask for anything in return to those I bow and ask them to be recoginized by the student of MA everywhere.


As for me I own and operate a school for the love of the Art my tuition is low and if someone can't pay we still teach those with the desise to be there.

Please do not put me in the catogory of the great deserving instructors out there, I'm trying to be as my instructore was for me.
Terry