Tae Kwon do Gun Disarms

[Makalakumu]

Some interesting info on the success rate at different distances though. And I like the idea of the paint ball gun. I bet at point blank range, you'd have a real good incentive to get it right as quickly as possible.

hahahahaha :rofl:

This little experiment took a few days. A person can only take so much pain. We hit the bar afterward for a little analgesic.

Getting hit at five feet was worse then getting hit when the paintball exited the barrel. I had bruises for weeks. Btw - I don't recommend training like this on a regular basis...unless you really really really like pain.

 

[searcher]

We do not perform gun disarms in my TKD. If there is no other choice it would be better to try something than nothing. Either way there is slim chance of success.

 

[Makalakumu]

From 10 feet out whether the gun is drawn or not, I teach my students to run away in a curved path from a gun. It gives the highest probability of survival and it is the easiest when the adrenaline and feat is flowing.

Closer then 10 feet, if the gun isn't drawn. Attack as brutally as possible. Do not let your opponent draw the weapon. Disable your opponent.

If the gun is drawn and you are closer then 10 feet, try something. Get off line, secure the weapon. Attempt to disarm. Disable the attacker.

An eye rake makes a gun useless. It is probably one of the highest percentage techniques that will keep you alive, in my opinion.

 

[bignick]

Got the stat tonight from my Judo and Jujutsu instructor, who was in the Marines for 19 years and a LEO since 1984.

"In a real gun fight, you've got a 93% chance of them missing from only 7 feet away."

If you're running full out, you're gonna be able to put a lot more than 7 feet between you and them.

 

[swiftpete]

We do not perform gun disarms in my TKD. If there is no other choice it would be better to try something than nothing. Either way there is slim chance of success.

I wouldn't say there is necessarily a slim chance of success, it depends on how you train it really. My instructor can disarm someone with a gun or knife without much trouble at all. They usually end up on the floor with him kneeling on/locking some part of their body, weapon gone and them in a lot of pain. Of course that depends on being within a few feet of them i guess, but he doesn't struggle. Not saying I'd be able to do it that well personally but i know that it is possible!

 

[Bigshadow]

This is close to what we do - four rules to weapons attack:

1. Clear your body from the line of attack.
2. Contain/control the weapon.
3. Disarm the attacker.
4. Neutralize the attack.

Anybody else follow this?

I think for us it is...

1. Get off the line of attack
2. Control/neutralize the attacker (weapon non-issue then). We never focus on the weapon, as it is harmless. It is the weilder that is dangerous.

 

[Spookey]

Dear Sir,

The pretty theory of your statement is beautiful to say the least. I firmly agree that guns dont kill people, people kill people...BUT THEY USE GUNS!

During the neutralization of the attacker certain involuntary motions will take place. When being attacked it is natural to suffer inadvertant muscle tension and flinching.

If you are not in control of the weapon you cannot control the line of fire, and one wrong twitch or flinch on the weapon holders part and the firearm may discharge even without the intention of the weapon holder!

Never had this happen with a "red gun"...BECAUSE THE TRIGGER DOESNT WORK! Try that with an unloaded J-Frame revolver in the single action mode!

Think that over, and try it a time or two in real time!

SpooKeY

 

[searcher]

I wouldn't say there is necessarily a slim chance of success, it depends on how you train it really. My instructor can disarm someone with a gun or knife without much trouble at all. They usually end up on the floor with him kneeling on/locking some part of their body, weapon gone and them in a lot of pain. Of course that depends on being within a few feet of them i guess, but he doesn't struggle. Not saying I'd be able to do it that well personally but i know that it is possible!

My reasoning behind not attempting to disarm due to a slim chance of success comes from listening to a Sayoc Kali instructor say that it is highly difficult to disarm an un-trained person with a knife. The use of a gun brings a new dynamic to the situation. If your instructor can disarm with ease, the atacker is not trying very hard. I mean no offense against you or your instructor in my reply.

 

[Bigshadow]

Dear Sir,
If you are not in control of the weapon you cannot control the line of fire, and one wrong twitch or flinch on the weapon holders part and the firearm may discharge even without the intention of the weapon holder!

OK, let's take this one piece of mechanics out of the whole situation and analyze it. You are telling me that if you are holding a firearm, I cannot control where you point the gun? You have an arm with a hand at the end (holding a knife, gun, or heck even a light saber) ? So you mean I can use your arm to control your body (such as in the use of arm bars), but I cannot use your arm to control your hand and your body? I can keep your arm from bending, no? If I control where you point the weapon I keep you from shooting anyone, but pretty soon you would have far more things to worry about than pulling the trigger of a gun you cannot aim. Keep in mind the safest place to be is between the weapon and the attacker, NOT in front of the weapon. Think about that for a while.

Never had this happen with a "red gun"...BECAUSE THE TRIGGER DOESNT WORK! Try that with an unloaded J-Frame revolver in the single action mode!

Think that over, and try it a time or two in real time!

SpooKeY

To be honest, we have used various weapons that fire objects including the airsoft guns which are generally dimensionally correct for their real world counterpart. What I am talking about works, as can be demonstrated over and over. If you control the attacker you certainly control the weapon, but if you are struggling for control of the weapon it becomes a struggle of strength and the one who is "STRONGER" is likely to win. Meanwhile while your struggling with the weapon, the attacker's buddy shoots you in the back (which at this point has not even been brought up).

Try grabbing the knife out of the hands of a trained knife fighter, see what happens. Same as trying to grab a gun and control it from a trained gun weilding attacker, that is a good way to get shot.

So I respectfully disagree with you on all points.

EDIT: In all fairness, when I say control the attacker I mean control the attacker in it's entirety. Including where the attacker is pointing the weapon. So there might be a misunderstanding of what I mean by control! But I DO NOT mean grabbing the weapon and wrestling it out of the attackers hands.

 

[Makalakumu]

EDIT: In all fairness, when I say control the attacker I mean control the attacker in it's entirety. Including where the attacker is pointing the weapon. So there might be a misunderstanding of what I mean by control! But I DO NOT mean grabbing the weapon and wrestling it out of the attackers hands.

A simple check to the weapon hand/arm would suffice. Your posts bear some serious thought. I've always been taught to control the weapon, but this has always turned into a match when the attacker is really trying to hold on to the weapon. I figured that by using superior technique it would be possible to win out against strength. Even with good technique, it is still "hard".

I wonder if the weapon check/disable attacker approach would produce higher percentage results? I'll experiment and report back...

 

[Bigshadow]

Everyone, my apologies, for straying off topic with my previous post. I realize I am in the TKD forum and I am not trying to hijack the thread or cause any angst from my fellow martial artists. The thread starter was asking about how gun disarms are dealt with in TKD and I provided some some insight into a non-TKD approach. Again, my apologies for drifting the thread.

 

[Spookey]

Dear BigShadow,


It is completely possible to lock my arm immobile as you stated, but my question is if you are busy locking my arm, what prevents me from reaching with my free hand taking the gun into it and shooting you...after all you are busy with me and my arm as opposed to my gun.

Second of all I do believe it highly unlikely that you can completely immobilize the multiple joints of both of my arms to a point which will guarantee that you stay off line from the muzzle.

Please explain this amazing ability!

TAEKWON!
Spookey

 

[Digger70chall]

while watching the black belt classes i've seen the use of both attacking the weapon and attacking the hand holding the weapon. I've only really seen them attack the arm during a knife defense but they locked it out to the side making reaching around with the opposite hand impossible to do, place your right arm straight out and try to reach with the opposite hand...it's won't reach, so i can see where attacking and immobilizing the arm is a viable strategy as well as simply disarming them.

 

[FearlessFreep]

Bigshadow, don't sweat it. I think gun-disarms are dangerous and poorly understood by many , but very crucial to understand these days, so it's good to get practical input from any background

 

[shesulsa]

If the weapon is an extension of the body, you don't want to attack the weapon (weapon sharp or fast - not good), you want to control the part of the body which holds the weapon. When it's under your control you can harm or stun the owner so that you may then disarm or ... make the owner use their own weapon on them.

If the attacker can access the weapon with the other hand, the weapon is not controlled by you.

 

[Bigshadow]

If the attacker can access the weapon with the other hand, the weapon is not controlled by you.

Great point! That pretty much sums it up!

 

[FearlessFreep]

OK, question here. How much danger is the gun once you'ce gotten 'inside' it and are no longer on-line? For example, if you do a wrist trap/lock on the weapon hand that takes you out of the line of fire, is the gun still dangerous?

I guess the reason I ask is that we do a lot of SD moves against punches that involve evading to one side, trapping the wrist of the strike, applying pressure to that hand for manipulation, but also striking various points of the arm (tricep, bicep, elbow, etc...) to take away the ability of that limb to function/strike. I'm wondering how adatable they would be to a gun situation from short range of moving off target, trapping the wrist and breaking the arm or at least severly damaging it to get them to drop the gun.

 

[Bigshadow]

OK, question here. How much danger is the gun once you'ce gotten 'inside' it and are no longer on-line? For example, if you do a wrist trap/lock on the weapon hand that takes you out of the line of fire, is the gun still dangerous?

Well, (teasingly) the gun is not dangerous, EVER! However, the attacker is still a danger to those people around you. You must have an awareness of your surroundings. For instance, you would be safe at that point (for that moment anyway) but your loved ones or innocent bystanders (if any) would not necessarily be safe. It would be your responsibility to control the attacker so that if the attacker does fire the gun, the bullets do not hit anyone. It is OK if they fire the gun as long as it is pointed in a safe direction, or toward themselves. Realistically, if the gun is pointed in a safe direction, then what is the rush to try and get the gun out of the hand? Just dispatch the attacker and you can easily take it from their hand rather than fight them for it.

I'm wondering how adatable they would be to a gun situation from short range of moving off target, trapping the wrist and breaking the arm or at least severly damaging it to get them to drop the gun.

Well, look at this way, the weapon is an extension of the body. If you truely believe this and train with that mindset, isn't it all the same?

 

[TX_BB]

My two cents, you need to eliminate the attackers will or means to attack in this case a gun. The gun needs to be seperated from the attacker. My reason is that one does not know where a bullet will eventually stop. Bullets go through people, bounce off bone and metal and generally find ways to do the most destruction as possible.

 

[Makalakumu]

Okay, tried a few things last night. The defender put on boxing gloves and the attacker put on a stout helmet and chest protector. When the gun or knife was drawn, I checked the weapon hand slammed my attacker as hard as I could wherever I found an opening. The blows stunned the attacker and sometimes knocked him down. I only had problems if I did not maintain contact with the attacker.