Korean Arts Huh!

[Indie12]

Actually you have it backwards...Taekkyon started out as a martial art and became a folk game. As far as ssirum is concern, you would have to exclude all wrestling out of martial arts based on your view of Ssirum. For that matter, Kumdo, Judo as well since they are for sport not for "war".

While it is true that Koreans look towards more scholarly pursuits due to Neo-confucianism, martial arts were not looked down upon as so many would think. In fact many of the upper caste learned martial arts as part of their education and training.

Mooyedobotongji was based off of military arts which were basic instructions in weapon work and some unarmed combat. While you can credit the vast majority on Chinese arts there are some that are also Korean based as well.

True!! Wrestling itself is a form of Martial Art, Boxing too!

Actually if you know your history, you'll know that many Martial Art systems became sport thereafter in order to 'survive' during the occupations and years... It was a survival mode.

 

[Indie12]

Well in eastern culture a martial art normally tends to follow a philosophy. In which techniques exist to express that philosophy. For example I will use Korean martial art of "Tae Kwon Do." Which seems to follow the philosophy that the kick of a weaker man is as strong(or stronger) as a punch from a stronger man. And that the kick can be trained to be as fast as a punch. So you see techniques that represent this philosophy.
I guess one could say it's a systematic approach to win a physical struggle of some sort. Whether it's upfront combat or a strategic way that isn't so upfront.

But I would not call something that was made solely for traditional folk game as "martial art"
Nor would I call "NAGA" a martial art.
but it's a place where many martial artist go to grapple.

If you really wanna get 'technical' the term 'Martial Arts' isn't really eastern, it's western. It was coined as a means of caterizing all Combative Systems under one name. And no Tae Kwon Do actually is the opposite, the idea that the legs themselves are 10x stronger then the arms. Tae Kwon Do comes from a long line of KMA discendents.

 

[Indie12]

What evidence is there that suggest Taekkyon was more than just a game of kicking each other?
Because as far as I know that is all it was. A game where you used to kick each other.

And as for Ssireum, I'm looking at the pictures they used to show that it is traditional. And based on the drawings they didn't use Satba.

Taekkyon has roots in the Hwarang system of fighting.

Ssireum is also a form of ground fighting or early wrestling, and yes it was a combat system also. Don't forget many of the combat systems were also used for sport purposes as a means of either hiding it's true intentions, or for spectator purposes!

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Taekkyon has roots in the Hwarang system of fighting.

If you don't mind my asking, what sort of documentation do you have to support this?

Daniel

 

[Indie12]

It was as martial as anything we do in martial arts now is. Near as I can tell, if you have belt rankings or colored sashes, it is a 'martial art', even if it has little martial application.

Indie: Sad but true!

Most of what we call martial arts now are more accurately called fighting sports/ fighting system or archaic martial arts. Taekwondo has little, if any martial (as in war) application in either the current century or the century in which it was developed. Kenjutsu had martial application at one time, but does no longer.

Indie: Taekwondo has links to Taekkyon and some of the older Korean systems, while the system itself is not an application for battle, some of the not-so-spectacular techniques do! Also I'll add that Tae Kwon Do is taught to South and North Korean Military Personnel as apart of their hand to hand combat training.

Indie: The 20th century, when Tae Kwon Do was developed by Gen Choi had little Martial (War) application, since truly the 1970's when it became more about Sport, it lost all Martial credibility. The 21st century is no different.

Boxing, prior to the introduction of Queensbury rules, was more than just punching, but nobody calls old boxing a martial art and modern boxing just a sport. Its all just the sport of boxing as practiced in different eras.

Indie: Not true, actually Boxing is a Martial Art, (I.E Combat/fighting method) unfortunately it's widely practiced as sport, but it doesn't mean it's not 'Martial'

Indie: You speak a great deal of Martial application, many of our modern militaries use Boxing as a hand2hand combat training method.

In pre-modern warfare, unarmed combat was the very last resort, and no, I do not believe or buy the crazy notion that a flying sidekick was developed to unhorse an armored and mounted rider. Pre-modern military hand to hand combat was likely similar to modern hand to hand combat: smaller technique set that was drilled with enough frequency to maintain the skill, but receiving far less attention than skills in archery and spearmanship. Most soldiers did not carry swords; these were reserved for officers, and officers, including the samurai, did not use the sword as their primary weapon on the battlefield.

Indie: Which century are we talking about? Hand2Hand combat was the primary source of war for centuries, followed by the use of weapons (I.E rocks, sticks, spears,) then (swords, metal spears,) then (firearms, cannons,) to (tanks, armory, bombs).

Indie: I'll agree that I too do not believe in the concept of a flying side kick being thrown into a riding horsemen, many of these techniques were developed solely for the purpose of entertainment and sport.

Indie: Weaponary has been the primary source of War, I'd argue that the Samurai did indeed use there sword on the battlefield as a supplement. Prior to the 18th and 19th century there were no firearms, cannons, or bombs in Japan. Archery, Spears, and Swords were the primary weapons of that time, along with hand2hand.

So how are you defining martial art? Fighting sports, such as wrestling or Taekkyeon, would not have been considered 'martial arts' by any pre-industrial military.

Indie: Again, I'd argue that any form of combat such as wrestling or Taekkyeon do have links to unarmed combat usage. Wrestling is one of the oldest forms of unarmed combat which the Greeks and Romans used in there war efforts when unarmed, surely it wasn't often though.

Indie: To answer your question about Taekkyeon and Hwarang, 1) When I was studying with a Hwarang Instructor, that was part of the studying, learning Hwarang History. 2) If you go back into Korean Lineage, you'll find where Hwarang influenced many of the techniques used in Taekkyeon. I will admit however, that many records were lost and in the Korean history there aren't accurate records of many systems.

If you mean martial art in the sense of 'fighting systems', which is how the term is used in the modern world, the definition is pretty loose.

Indie: I'll agree! Unfortunately we live in a world where many Martial art systems or 'Fighting Systems' could not hold much water in actual combat. I will add however, that many of the techniques now used in many 'fighting systems' do have lineage in actual hand2hand combat usage.

Daniel

It's always easier for me to respond via per quote....

"Haa I just love it when people try to complicate things by saying 'Martial Arts isn't Combat/Warfare but rather something else"

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I'm not sure what question you were answering, but it was not the one regarding this:

Taekkyon has roots in the Hwarang system of fighting.

I restate the question: what sort of documentation do you have to support this? I'm not debating whether or not takkyeon is or is not a martial art.

I am asking you what documentation do you have linking takkyeon to a specific fighting system of the Hwarang?

Daniel

 

[puunui]

I am asking you what documentation do you have linking takkyeon to a specific fighting system of the Hwarang?

The Hwarang were I believe some sort of royal court group; Taekkyon was folk game practiced mainly in rural parts of Korea. The two groups don't really mix and so a connection between them would be tenuous at best.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

The Hwarang were I believe some sort of royal court group; Taekkyon was folk game practiced mainly in rural parts of Korea. The two groups don't really mix and so a connection between them would be tenuous at best.

Kind of my feeling. So far as I know, documentation about the Hwarang themselves does not include details of their fighting style.

Daniel

 

[puunui]

Kind of my feeling. So far as I know, documentation about the Hwarang themselves does not include details of their fighting style.

Some say that the Hwarang, which some translate to "Flower Boys", may have been some sort of male geisha group. I have no idea if that is true or not.

 

[miguksaram]

Taekwondo has links to Taekkyon and some of the older Korean systems, while the system itself is not an application for battle, some of the not-so-spectacular techniques do! Also I'll add that Tae Kwon Do is taught to South and North Korean Military Personnel as apart of their hand to hand combat training.

Taekwondo has no links to Takkyon at all. The closest link you would find is roughly through hapkido kicking that was adopted into Taekwondo. That link comes supposedly through DJN Ji, Han-jae's training in Taekkyon. Taekwondo, as we know it today, is an evolved art with roots based in karate.

The 20th century, when Tae Kwon Do was developed by Gen Choi had little Martial (War) application, since truly the 1970's when it became more about Sport, it lost all Martial credibility. The 21st century is no different.

You have mixed message here. First you mention "as developed by Gen Choi..." followed by "..it became more about sport..." TKD was developed by several people not just Gen. Choi. Gen Choi's version of TKD is not what was developed the sport aspect of what we see in the Olympics. So to be clear, when TKD was developed it was developed with martial application, which is why it was required training for Korean military. One of the branches that sprung from this tree was a sport aspect of the training.

So my question to you is how did it lose credibility? Do you feel that because the sport became popular that the rest just became crap? If so the the dojangs that you visited or trained in just didn't have a balanced curriculum.

Not true, actually Boxing is a Martial Art, (I.E Combat/fighting method) unfortunately it's widely practiced as sport, but it doesn't mean it's not 'Martial'

Then how can you say TKD has lost credibility as a martial art if boxing is no different?

You speak a great deal of Martial application, many of our modern militaries use Boxing as a hand2hand combat training method.

Military may incorporate boxing techniques but what they use for h2h is not boxing.

Which century are we talking about? Hand2Hand combat was the primary source of war for centuries, followed by the use of weapons (I.E rocks, sticks, spears,) then (swords, metal spears,) then (firearms, cannons,) to (tanks, armory, bombs).

If you are talking prehistoric man before his knowledge of tool usage then yes...I agree. However, once he figured a stick or rock in the hand was a lot easier to use in a fight...weapons became the preferred method of combat. If not please direct me to specific dates in Korea's history where they only used their hands in combat.

Weaponry has been the primary source of War, I'd argue that the Samurai did indeed use there sword on the battlefield as a supplement. Prior to the 18th and 19th century there were no firearms, cannons, or bombs in Japan. Archery, Spears, and Swords were the primary weapons of that time, along with hand2hand.

Yes h2h training was taught, but as a last resort. That is why in the Muyeadobotongji you have 3/4 dedicated to weapons training and 1/4 to h2h training.

To answer your question about Taekkyeon and Hwarang, 1) When I was studying with a Hwarang Instructor, that was part of the studying, learning Hwarang History. 2) If you go back into Korean Lineage, you'll find where Hwarang influenced many of the techniques used in Taekkyeon. I will admit however, that many records were lost and in the Korean history there aren't accurate records of many systems.

The WHRDA is not the best place to get your Korean history knowledge in dealing with Hwarang. I suggest reading Korean history books and getting better idea about actual Korean history and its mention of the Hwarang warriors before swallowing the spoon fed history of WHRDA.

 

[miguksaram]

Some say that the Hwarang, which some translate to "Flower Boys", may have been some sort of male geisha group. I have no idea if that is true or not.

This is not correct. A lot of people have claimed the Hwarang were homosexuals since they would take outings together in the mountains and such. This breaks down to simple ignorance of Korean culture. While the literal translation my have been "Flower" I believe there is a deeper translation involved in the name. I will have to review my books to find it though.

 

[miguksaram]

Kind of my feeling. So far as I know, documentation about the Hwarang themselves does not include details of their fighting style.

Daniel

They never had a specific fighting style that WHRDA claims they do. They followed basic military fighting concepts similar to that found in the MYDBTJ.

 

[shesulsa]

It's times like this I wish I was fluent in Korean so I could actually read the Sagi's myself.

It's always interesting (in a limp noodle way) to read the attempts at translation whenever it comes to the hwarang.

Flower boys. Homosexuals. Or my user name, female diarrhea.

Curious if any of you have been to either a WHRDA school or to one of the HRD offshoot schools?

 

[miguksaram]

It's times like this I wish I was fluent in Korean so I could actually read the Sagi's myself.

It's always interesting (in a limp noodle way) to read the attempts at translation whenever it comes to the hwarang.


Flower boys. Homosexuals. Or my user name, female diarrhea.

Curious if any of you have been to either a WHRDA school or to one of the HRD offshoot schools?

The problem is that people take the term "blooming or flowering" literally as flower instead of a more ideological approach to the term. I blame this on Western ignorance on Korean culture. We tend to translate definitions directly into our own language.

Yes. I have studied with one of the renegades of WHRDA. I hope you do not confuse my issue with their take of Hwarang or the origin of their art as an issue with the art itself. I feel they are very good martial artists and the Hwarangdo is an effective martial art, but history is history.

I have read the Samguk Yusa, something that I recommend. You can find it here: http://www.amazon.com/Samguk-Yusa-Legends-History-Kingdoms/dp/1596543485. I recommend reading it a couple of times as it can get confusing at times. Currently there is university group based out in Hawaii who is was trying to translate the Samguk Sagi. http://www2.hawaii.edu/~dkane/Samguk.htm. It is a project that I believe is still in process. I hope they do complete as it would be great to read more history from that time.

I am currently reading Korea: Old and New by Lee, Ki-baek. Which touches on the Hwarang as well as do most historical Korean books.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

This is not correct. A lot of people have claimed the Hwarang were homosexuals since they would take outings together in the mountains and such. This breaks down to simple ignorance of Korean culture. While the literal translation my have been "Flower" I believe there is a deeper translation involved in the name. I will have to review my books to find it though.

I always thought of it in terms of the Hwarang embodying the fullness of Korean virtue.

As I understand, the Hwarang were versed in classical learning and fine arts, which may have actually been more primary than the martial arts.

Daniel

 

[miguksaram]

I always thought of it in terms of the Hwarang embodying the fullness of Korean virtue.

As I understand, the Hwarang were versed in classical learning and fine arts, which may have actually been more primary than the martial arts.

Daniel

Yes, the Hwarang were comprised of the aristocracy of Korean society. They were well educated in all areas including classical learning, fine arts, practical education and martial arts.

 

[shesulsa]

The given history (WHRDA version) is that King Chin Hun approached Won Kwon Bopsa for an elite martial art to teach the Hwarang (more of a high society group and supposedly meaning 'flowering manhood' or 'flowering youth') and lead military commands. :idunno:

So it has always been my understanding - and if anyone here is fluent in an asian language, please reply - that while there are characters for simple words combining two characters creates a new word or at least a word with more specific meaning. Hence, "flower" + "boy" would be something like "blossoming youth" (even we don't have a single word in English for this, I think).

 

[miguksaram]

The given history (WHRDA version) is that King Chin Hun approached Won Kwon Bopsa for an elite martial art to teach the Hwarang (more of a high society group and supposedly meaning 'flowering manhood' or 'flowering youth') and lead military commands. :idunno:

(Note: Some of what is in written in the Samguk Yusa is in dispute amongst modern day scholars due to no concrete facts supporting the ideas stated, so take it for what it is) According the Samguk Yusa, King Jinheung (aka Chin Hun) began the Hwarang group after the disbandment of a group called Wonhwa, a female group that was trained in ethics, filial, loyalty and sincerity. After their disbandment King Jinhueng put together, what he called the Hwarang. This was a group of boys from good families. The main purpose was not military oriented but aimed in keeping good ties with what was known as the golpum system. (Golpum (aka bone rank) was a caste system established in Korea.) Families that were high ranking in the golpum were usually granted high government positions. This was a way to keep the peace.

Around 551, when King Jinheung decided to expand the Silla kingdom by aligning with Baekje to conquer Gogoryeo, is when they started looking at the Hwarang to be more militaristic. Around this time they were being trained in military arts of horsemanship, spear, swordsmanship, archery, etc...This pretty much began the golden age of the Hwarang. After their victory over Gogoryeo, Silla aligned themselves secretly with them to oust out Baekje in 553.

The Hwarang were not chosen automatically to be warriors. Based on their status in society they were chose to become government officials and other high ranking members in society, and from there certain ones would be bred as warriors.

Last note: There is more history after 553...but I wanted to give an insight as to the origins of Hwarang.

 

[shesulsa]

(Note: Some of what is in written in the Samguk Yusa is in dispute amongst modern day scholars due to no concrete facts supporting the ideas stated, so take it for what it is) According the Samguk Yusa, King Jinheung (aka Chin Hun) began the Hwarang group after the disbandment of a group called Wonhwa, a female group that was trained in ethics, filial, loyalty and sincerity. After their disbandment King Jinhueng put together, what he called the Hwarang. This was a group of boys from good families. The main purpose was not military oriented but aimed in keeping good ties with what was known as the golpum system. (Golpum (aka bone rank) was a caste system established in Korea.) Families that were high ranking in the golpum were usually granted high government positions. This was a way to keep the peace.

Around 551, when King Jinheung decided to expand the Silla kingdom by aligning with Baekje to conquer Gogoryeo, is when they started looking at the Hwarang to be more militaristic. Around this time they were being trained in military arts of horsemanship, spear, swordsmanship, archery, etc...This pretty much began the golden age of the Hwarang. After their victory over Gogoryeo, Silla aligned themselves secretly with them to oust out Baekje in 553.

The Hwarang were not chosen automatically to be warriors. Based on their status in society they were chose to become government officials and other high ranking members in society, and from there certain ones would be bred as warriors.

Last note: There is more history after 553...but I wanted to give an insight as to the origins of Hwarang.

That is more eloquently put than but still in keeping with what I've been taught through oral traditions.

Thanks!

 

[miguksaram]

That is more eloquently put than but still in keeping with what I've been taught through oral traditions.

Thanks!

Seems the WHRDA version makes it sound as though the Hwarang was formed specifically as a warrior class. Plus WHRDA makes it sound as though the military leaders of Hwarang all became monks and went into hiding to practice their art. This is not true. A lot of them went on to be prominent merchants and politicians. Some may have become monks as well, but I would not go so far as saying they all donned the robes and went into the mountains in secrecy. Nor do I believe they taught secretly handing it down from one person to the next.
Again, I have to emphasize that my disagreement of their history is not meant to say their martial art is bogus or their abilities lacking. I simply feel they are embellishing to make themselves more than they are.