sport TKD

[Manny]

Good day to all here, there is no doubt (at least for me) that the korean martial art of Tae Kwon Do is fading away in favor of the Sport Tae Kwon Do. There are some people like my sambonim who says TKD is still a martial art and he gave me a ton of reasons, the truth for me is that sadly TKD has evolved into a nice Sport as did Judo many decades ago.

Talking with another tkdoings some of them think TKD has lost his martialy too and all remeber the old days when besides poomsae and sparring we did alot of self defense techs, not only kicking.

I want you to try to explain how was the change from Korean Martial Art to Sport, why koreans put so muh effort in this and how in heaven they put the SD in a drawer. What really hapened with the sambonims those days when they put all their efforts in recluting kids and start the sporty side of TKD till these days.

I am trying to make my own classes as calsic tkd as possible and I must admint sometimes these classes have no sport side.

Manny

 

[gobbly]

I'm but a noob, but imo I think this is just what people are interested in. SD is just not readily applicable to many people's lives. I'm 32, and have yet to have to physically defend myself, yet I get to spar once a week in my club, and there are several tournaments a year I can compete in.

I personally didn't start to defend myself, or to compete. I was just an aging guy who needed better self control to quit smoking and wanted to get in shape. I like the idea that if I had to I might be able to save myself in a physical confrontation, and I like taking out some aggression on an opponent in the ring (within the rule-set). But I'm there in the end to do kicking drills and the exercises, to get stronger and develop better cardio, and I haven't touched a cigarette since early march

I guess in the end I don't think it's sad that other people come to the art with different goals and interests than myself (or yourself), none of this should change what the art means to us. I see the sport focus as people simply embracing aspects that fit in with their reasons for studying the art

 

[dancingalone]

I guess in the end I don't think it's sad that other people come to the art with different goals and interests than myself (or yourself), none of this should change what the art means to us. I see the sport focus as people simply embracing aspects that fit in with their reasons for studying the art

I think that's a positive way to look at it. Just as there is nothing wrong with wanting to focus on self-defense, there's absolutely great reasons to practice the sport side in the main or exclusively so, if you wish to. Where the problem can be is if the student and teacher are misaligned, where their goals and efforts work against each other.

As for why TKD has tilted visibly to the sport side, at least in terms of what receives attention and funding... Well, I don't think anyone will argue that at least in the near past the South Korean government and the KKW administration were had very close ties with the goal that taekwondo be promoted as the Korean national sport with the accompanying feelings of local pride and reciprocated goodwill in the test of the world.

 

[puunui]

I want you to try to explain how was the change from Korean Martial Art to Sport, why koreans put so muh effort in this and how in heaven they put the SD in a drawer. What really hapened with the sambonims those days when they put all their efforts in recluting kids and start the sporty side of TKD till these days.

Simple reason is that the korean people are not focused on self defense. Korea, like Japan, is a relatively safe country. I feel completely safe whenever I visit. There are no guns allowed and violent crime is rare.

In short, the best way to think about it is through Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs concept. The Korean people and Korea in general has evolved over the last 65 years and are focused on things other than basic desires such as food, shelter, clothing, or personal safety.

I was interviewed recently by a Secret Service agent for a top secret clearance investigation for one of my students. My student is a civilian contractor for the military and needs access to top secret areas of the military bases here. The agent was born in Korea, and she said that self defense arts like Hapkido are dying and on the decline, and that sport oriented arts like Taekwondo and even Taekkyon are on the rise. She said Taekwondo is such that it will never die or decline, because it is so much a part of the culture at this point. She said that the Korean people do not have an overwhelming desire for physical self protection, that personal self defense is not a high priority.

 

[tinker1]

My personal belief is that sport diminishes the art.

Sport is fine, as long as it remains a subset of what is practiced.

When art becomes sport, or sport becomes the primary focus of practice, then virtually all practice will fall within the realm of what is allowed in the sport. That is, if a technique is disallowed in the sport (or unrewarded), then that technique will not be practiced.

Lead leg kicks and twist kick come quickly to mind here. Master Koo taught us that lead leg kicks are usually not counted as points in competition because it is believed that they lack power. And yet, at one of the last tests I judged, one of the students going for 4th dan broke a stack of 6 boards (hand held) with a lead leg side kick.

Years ago in freestyle competition (where I spent the bulk of my competition career) spin kick (or hook kick) was not counted because it was thought to have little power.. that was the first reason. Once we started knocking people out, then they disallowed it because it was an uncontrolled technique (like a spinning elbow).

Taekwondo competition actually hampers self defense training in my opinion. This, because a punch to the head is disallowed in competition, the competitors tend to keep their hands low.. and don't really train against people who might punch them in the head. Even though this is the most common attack one encounters, sport taekwondo practitioners don't learn to guard against this in training. This, I feel is wrong.

 

[puunui]

Master Koo taught us that lead leg kicks are usually not counted as points in competition because it is believed that they lack power.

Master Koo? Are you speaking about GM KOO Pyoung Hae from San Ramon?

 

[Manny]

Thank you all guys, you have valid points, yes times in the cities are not violent but in very bad places that we avoid to be, about myself I am a midle clase man who runs a family bussiness, I am married and my life is working, be with my family and train TKD, I don't go out with guys anymore, drink very little so basically I am a family man so what kind of fear should I feel? well some I must say, in my city the war agaionts drugs cartels is on, in the last two months not less than 3 or 4 shootings beeten army and narcs IN THE STREETS with fully automatic machine guns and even grenades, inocent bystanders have been caught in the cross fire and some have died. The streets are not longer safe and TKD can't do anything againts this.

My TKD can be good againts a robber or maybe against a drunk men or maybe against a trafific incident but as you may know been a family man this kind of encounters are very low, so why in heaven be a self defense expert? because: a) I love self defense techs and b) just in case of..... need it.

Manny

 

[puunui]

My TKD can be good againts a robber or maybe against a drunk men or maybe against a trafific incident but as you may know been a family man this kind of encounters are very low, so why in heaven be a self defense expert? because: a) I love self defense techs and b) just in case of..... need it.

To me, reason #1 is enough of a reason to continue practicing self defense techniques. Part of the path of the martial arts is tailoring the art to your own desires, wants and personality. But usually it does not stop there. People for some reason feel the need to justify their position and say this or that is wrong, that I focus on this and this is the true way. Or I cannot do something so it isn't important or not really a part of our art. I personally am interested in everything connected with Taekwondo so I don't really make those sorts of distinctions. But I recognize that other people do. If you want to do Taekwondo only for self defense, then do that. At the same token, if others want to do Taekwondo purely for competition purposes, then that should be ok too, just like it should be ok for the overweight couch potato 7 year old with a nintendo control thing glued to his hands to do Taekwondo for exercise or social purposes. Taekwondo is big enough and broad enough to encompass everyone. It was designed to be an inclusive art by the pioneers, where everyone has a place, no matter what that the reasons for being involved.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I think its great manny that you are focusing on claassic tkd and not sport, and you are certainly not alone in your vision, many people are moving in the same direction. I was told recently that a very large school in my country (thousands and thousands of students) is about to cease its involvement with the kukkiwon, they are in talks currently with other independent clubs and will soon pull the pin. My instructor was at my GM's house during the last olympics and said our GM was visibly upset by what he saw in 'sport' sparring. As Ive said a thousand times before, I have nothing against 'sport tkd' as long as the clubs advertise it as such and let new students realise that what they are learning is sport. There is plenty of room for both martial tkd and sport tkd to co-exist, neither is better than the other but both offer different things.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Lead leg kicks and twist kick come quickly to mind here. Master Koo taught us that lead leg kicks are usually not counted as points in competition because it is believed that they lack power.

Someone ought to tell Bill Wallace and all those guys he beat up with his lead leg kicks know. HMM maybe they ought to let Cung Le know too.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Everyone comes to the arts (whatever art that may be) for there own reasons.

• Self defense
• To compete
• Conditioning
• Hobby
• Self enhancement

And the list goes on. All of them are fine. My only concern would be if an art that is centered on sport training advertises themselves as self defense, and I suppose it could be just as bad to go the other way as well. My belief is they are two different animals. And though there are a few shared positive aspects, the detrimental ones outweigh the positive. They're different enough to warrant being kept separate, and thus advertised as such separately.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Everyone comes to the arts (whatever art that may be) for there own reasons.

• Self defense
• To compete
• Conditioning
• Hobby
• Self enhancement

And the list goes on. All of them are fine. My only concern would be if an art that is centered on sport training advertises themselves as self defense, and I suppose it could be just as bad to go the other way as well. My belief is they are two different animals. And though there are a few shared positive aspects, the detrimental ones outweigh the positive. They're different enough to warrant being kept separate, and thus advertised as such separately.

Very true. People who do their research before joining a MA generally end up in a club that suits their needs, but there are still a lot of people out there that think if a martial art has an asian sounding name then they are all the same and all teach great self defence. If their is a positive to come out of tkd in the olympics it would be that the exposure has led to people realising that in many cases tkd is just a sport. I am sick to death of people saying to me "oh, you do tkd, the one with the flashy kicks and their hands down. Why on earth do they have their hands by their sides?". This perception is probably steering people away from tkd who are looking for self defence, but also becoming popular for parents wanting a 'sport' for little johnny.

 

[puunui]

Someone ought to tell Bill Wallace and all those guys he beat up with his lead leg kicks know. HMM maybe they ought to let Cung Le know too.

Front leg kicks used to lack power because people used to just snap their kick out at the knee. Therefore the only weight behind the kick was the lower leg below the knee. Front leg side kick had power because you are moving your weight forward in the direction of the blow, so more weight is behind it. But now people know how to put their body weight behind their front leg kicks, so there is more power. My front leg roundhouse and back leg roundhouse has about the same power to it, because there is equal body weight behind both. You know you are on to something when you can fold people with your front leg, even when you are standing still and do ap bal. It's simple matter of weight transfer through your target.

 

[SYDTKD]

Everyone comes to the arts (whatever art that may be) for there own reasons.

couldn't agree with you anymore. I think most of the martial artists follows the origin of TKD but les not forget no matther how good you are in the classic TKD or sport TKD (ITF or WTF), I believe the most important things of doing TKD is your mind....i.e. the word 'DO' which also represent to give respect to the others...my 2 cents...:ultracool

 

[RobinTKD]

In the UK, sport TKD and classic TKD probably have an equal footing, the biggest organisation over here is the TAGB who primarily focus on ITF sparring and Tul, obviously with the rise of people like Aaron Cook, Sarah Stevenson and Jade Jones, KKW/WTF TKD is obviously still well represented, but no more so than classic. My instructor always calls what we do in the adult class Moo Duk Kwan, or occasionally Tang Soo Do/Soo Bahk Do, fortunately he accepts a bit of ribbing for these remarks

 

[Thesemindz]

I hear ya Manny. I come from a kenpo/TKD root myself. I don't teach sport at all, except as a training drill for real combat. Sports are fine for people that want to play them, sometimes I do myself, but we teach fighting karate, not sport karate.

Different strokes. But I hear what you're saying.


-Rob

 

[puunui]

I come from a kenpo/TKD root myself. I don't teach sport at all, except as a training drill for real combat. Sports are fine for people that want to play them, sometimes I do myself, but we teach fighting karate, not sport karate.

If you come from a kenpo/TKD root, how is it that you teach karate?

 

[tinker1]

Master Koo? Are you speaking about GM KOO Pyoung Hae from San Ramon?

Yes.

 

[tinker1]

To me, reason #1 is enough of a reason to continue practicing self defense techniques. Part of the path of the martial arts is tailoring the art to your own desires, wants and personality. But usually it does not stop there. People for some reason feel the need to justify their position and say this or that is wrong, that I focus on this and this is the true way. Or I cannot do something so it isn't important or not really a part of our art. I personally am interested in everything connected with Taekwondo so I don't really make those sorts of distinctions. But I recognize that other people do. If you want to do Taekwondo only for self defense, then do that. At the same token, if others want to do Taekwondo purely for competition purposes, then that should be ok too, just like it should be ok for the overweight couch potato 7 year old with a nintendo control thing glued to his hands to do Taekwondo for exercise or social purposes. Taekwondo is big enough and broad enough to encompass everyone. It was designed to be an inclusive art by the pioneers, where everyone has a place, no matter what that the reasons for being involved.

Absolutely perfect and correct.

For me - I've never enjoyed rolling around the floor wrestling with people... after the age of 7 anyway. The validity of the grappling arts isn't a question with me, it's just something I prefer not to do.

As an aside - referring to the self defense aspect, which is an aspect of training which I very much enjoy... I'm a biker - not a 1%er, but I see a lot of guys that are in 1% MC's and at time hang around with them in various "biker bars" (where I usually have a coffee, and I admit an occasional beer). Also, I'm from a small town.. 500 population with 4 bars.. and so I've been known to hang about "country / western" bars as well.

For the most part people usually just want to "raw jaw" as they say... just angry words and a show of bravado. In this case, I just let them have their way - and if appropriate, I apologize for what ever perceived wrong they feel I have committed.

I believe an air of self confidence - NOT cockiness - does more than anything to keep trouble from finding you.

 

[ATACX GYM]

The 3 headed hydra of a completely different culture which didn't respect tkd instructors as they'd been accustomed to in Korea combined with the significantly larger piles of cash which could be made here in the USA solely by teaching TKD and the massive egos of many TKD Masters who visited the USA and made it home for them combined to devastate TKD here in the USA.TKD in this country (USA) is a pale shadow of what it could be.That's amazingly obvious to those of us who've watched TKD's decline over the last 30 years.

Right off top I disagree with the compartmentalization of TKD,as I do with Kenpo.A comprehensive martial approach should include both the self-defense AND "sport/fitness" side. How many truly potent NOT FIT self-defense warriors are there? Answer: zero. Which exercises produce the most fit people in the world? The very same athletic,performance oriented high end exercises that athletes, self-defense specialists like myself AND every walk of life down to the bully at school (who could learn to NOT bully people and instead PROTECT them) and the bullied kid,suburban soccer momz,people looking for a fun healthy activity,etc. could gain benefits from. Just ratchet it down from Navy SEAL level intensity to Middle America level intensity.Keep the combat exercises and drills and make up more of your own (after appropriate study and understanding takes place) and at once you have "fighting fit" and "fit to fight" students.There ya go.

As a 5th dan in TKD and Kenpo,I have lotsa people who come to me to get in shape and have fun.More by far than who come to me to learn to fight. And that's perfectly fine.But you know what? The people who come to me to get in shape? They also learn to fight.And the people who come to me to learn to defend themselves? THE FIRST THING THAT CHANGES THEIR MINDS THE MOST IS WHEN THEIR BODY CHANGES BECAUSE THEY'RE IN SUPERIOR SHAPE THAN BEFORE. I guarantee changes that any client who walks through my door can feel in 48 seconds--EVERY 48 seconds--and physical fitness improvements that they can see every 14 training days. I guarantee it in black and white or you get your money back.Period.And there you go.