sure signs of a mcdojo and other schools to watch out for...

[MA-Caver]

Joking aside here, I think probably one of the other "red flags" is where the GM or senior instructor cannot provide a linage when asked. If you get a dumb look, RUN. If they say oh our GM was directly taught by Bruce Lee, Dan Isanto, Chuck Norris, Jean Claude Van Damme, Steven Segal, Richard "Dick" Marcinko and so on... RUN.
If the GM says there is no other linage beyond him... RUN
If the senior instructor says they have a BB in more than 3 arts and they're in their late 20's or early 30's RUN! (think about how long it would take to get a BB in a single art and do the math... true some folks have crossed trained to obtain BB's in different arts but when they got belts in more than 3 ... to me that has a whiff of something coming out of a bull's butt).

My fiancee and I are planning to take MA together (depending where we live and what is available... we are in a LDR at the moment so our choice of places to live is still up in the air), and thanks to MT I know more about what to watch out for when we finally decide upon our chosen art so to not get bent over the fence.
I plan on taking a couple of days to get to know the school and the instructors and the students before finally signing on... and I'll definitely gather information on the instructor and post them here and inquire about their linage, hoping that someone will recognize someone along that line, chances should be pretty good.

I am a bit leery of schools that offer more than one art. I understand that sometimes different instructors with different arts, will join up together to help pay the rent/space and have alternating days for their respective classes... still it's something I'll be looking out for.

 

[teekin]

Some arts are just so closely related though. Judo ( older school) and jujitsui. A shodan in one can quickly translate to a BB in the other. To pick up a third in another related art ( related in techniques and methodology) wouldn't be that hard for someone who started Judo as a child. I kind of expect some one who is competative in Judo to be studying Jujitsui with a specialist and have ranking in that as well. You kind of need to toss Sambo in there as well these days.
lori

 

[blindsage]

11. any place or mc-chain school that bomb rushes you to sign up for a contract as soon as you enter the door

bumrushes

(Takes slang corrector hat back off)

 

[Twin Fist]

because in my opinion, there will be needed difference between adult and child curriculum. And for the most part I don't think very young children and adults should partner with each other during class,

You wouldnt like my school then, because i have ONE curriculum, and it is the same for the kids as it is for the adults

and i MAKE kids work with adults, since that is who, in all reality, they will need to defend themselves against in the real world.

 

[Teufel Hunden]

I am a bit leery of schools that offer more than one art. I understand that sometimes different instructors with different arts, will join up together to help pay the rent/space and have alternating days for their respective classes... still it's something I'll be looking out for.

I wouldn't be automatically leery of multi-art schools, depending on what they are. My BJJ school also has Thai Boxing incorporated with the training, and it's an excellent school. Their main focus is still the BJJ though. With the increasing popularity of Mixed Martial Arts, I've seen more and more schools offer a "well rounded" curriculum, and shift slightly from the traditional single-art style.

 

[Blade96]

Joking aside here, I think probably one of the other "red flags" is where the GM or senior instructor cannot provide a linage when asked. If you get a dumb look, RUN. If they say oh our GM was directly taught by Bruce Lee, Dan Isanto, Chuck Norris, Jean Claude Van Damme, Steven Segal, Richard "Dick" Marcinko and so on... RUN.
If the GM says there is no other linage beyond him... RUN to me that has a whiff of something coming out of a bull's butt).

.

I did kenpo karate for 2 months where the school had some mcdojo characteristics though it might not have been a mcdojo. like the schools prices especially for beginners are insane. I went in as beginner little white belt and for 2 months of training at 2 classes per week for sometimes not even one full hour, you had to pay $225 canadian plus the cost of a black gi which was about 50 bucks o total about $300 for 2 months for a white belt! (course t was a family business where they actually made a living off ma so maybe the price had to be up a bit.) also half the class wasnt even kenpo stuff, it was running skipping, jumping jacks, etc. I was paying to do pushups? Wtf. Also, there was a guy of 17 who earned his black belt at age 12. So, kid black belts. In addition, the sensei would sometimes have his son teach the class. The son was only a green belt! go figure! Also even if you knew every bit of Kenpo stuff and could do it with power and grace perfectly, and had flexibility and so on, you still wouldnt be able to pass a belt test unless you could pass a physical. For white belts in order to get your yellow belt you had to be able to do 50 pushups (and I dunno how many situps) I believe it COULD be a ruse to keep students who loved kenpo there longer because if you were there longer you paid them more money and it would take you longer to earn belts if you couldnt pass the physical. and I didnt wait to find out. as soon as my ten weeks were up, I left. (well i was really looking for shotokan, not Kenpo. But I tried a kenpo school anyway.)

I'd be interested to hear what Kenpokas have to say about this though.

None of this would happen with the Shotokan Karate-Do organization I am part of now. In addition to having none of the characteristics above or no mcdojo characteristics mentioned in this thread, the association and its senseis have their lineage going back to Funakoshi himself (since my senseis knew and were testing by guys like Masami Tsuruoka and Hidetaka Nishiyama (who was an actual student of Funakoshi)

 

[Carol]

If this is part of the school uniform.. you might be at a McDojos

By the way there is a Wikipeida def of McDojos here

If you're at one in Canada, is it called a MacDojo?

 

[Carol]

I did kenpo karate for 2 months where the school had some mcdojo characteristics though it might not have been a mcdojo. like the schools prices especially for beginners are insane. I went in as beginner little white belt and for 2 months of training at 2 classes per week for sometimes not even one full hour, you had to pay $225 canadian plus the cost of a black gi which was about 50 bucks o total about $300 for 2 months for a white belt! (course t was a family business where they actually made a living off ma so maybe the price had to be up a bit.) also half the class wasnt even kenpo stuff, it was running skipping, jumping jacks, etc. I was paying to do pushups? Wtf. Also, there was a guy of 17 who earned his black belt at age 12. So, kid black belts. In addition, the sensei would sometimes have his son teach the class. The son was only a green belt! go figure! Also even if you knew every bit of Kenpo stuff and could do it with power and grace perfectly, and had flexibility and so on, you still wouldnt be able to pass a belt test unless you could pass a physical. For white belts in order to get your yellow belt you had to be able to do 50 pushups (and I dunno how many situps) I believe it COULD be a ruse to keep students who loved kenpo there longer because if you were there longer you paid them more money and it would take you longer to earn belts if you couldnt pass the physical. and I didnt wait to find out. as soon as my ten weeks were up, I left. (well i was really looking for shotokan, not Kenpo. But I tried a kenpo school anyway.)

I'd be interested to hear what Kenpokas have to say about this though.

None of this would happen with the Shotokan Karate-Do organization I am part of now. In addition to having none of the characteristics above or no mcdojo characteristics mentioned in this thread, the association and its senseis have their lineage going back to Funakoshi himself (since my senseis knew and were testing by guys like Masami Tsuruoka and Hidetaka Nishiyama (who was an actual student of Funakoshi)

To be honest, the Kenpo school doesn't sound horrible as I think you're trying to make it

I think fitness is one of the most important things a martial arts school can emphasize. I also think its up to the consumer to make a wise choice. If you don't want pushups, fitness tests, etc., then don't go to a school where they are offered. They definitely benefited me, and I think they would benefit a lot of Kenpoists as well.

Earning a junior black belt at 12 or 13 is fairly common. The subject of child black belts is a debate of its own, but that doesn't make the school out of bounds. Having a green belt lead class is not unusual either. Remember, in many arts, green is a beginner's rank, but in Kenpo, green is a more advanced rank (4th kyu). This is a good time for students to begin leading instructing others and leading class.

The biggest issue to me is that many of the folks I met of the folks that I have met in a similar situation...when they want to be in "Style A" but instead are in "Style B." Frankly speaking, it really doesn't matter what the styles in question are, the end result is the same. The student is unhappy, it is not what they want, and they speak as though they were personally insulted by the style and were quite bitter about it.

Glad to hear you enjoying the Shotokan. Its a wonderful thing to find a great fit with the school.

 

[Blade96]

To be honest, the Kenpo school doesn't sound horrible as I think you're trying to make it

I think fitness is one of the most important things a martial arts school can emphasize. I also think its up to the consumer to make a wise choice. If you don't want pushups, fitness tests, etc., then don't go to a school where they are offered. They definitely benefited me, and I think they would benefit a lot of Kenpoists as well.

Earning a junior black belt at 12 or 13 is fairly common. The subject of child black belts is a debate of its own, but that doesn't make the school out of bounds. Having a green belt lead class is not unusual either. Remember, in many arts, green is a beginner's rank, but in Kenpo, green is a more advanced rank (4th kyu). This is a good time for students to begin leading instructing others and leading class.

The biggest issue to me is that many of the folks I met of the folks that I have met in a similar situation...when they want to be in "Style A" but instead are in "Style B." Frankly speaking, it really doesn't matter what the styles in question are, the end result is the same. The student is unhappy, it is not what they want, and they speak as though they were personally insulted by the style and were quite bitter about it.

Must be different with kenpo then. at my shotokan school a green belt leading class - the senseis would be shocked at the idea! Cause only blacks and brown belts actually teach as part of their training.

and no, the kenpo school wasnt HORRIBLE, pe se. lots of people loved to train there, and they love their Sensei and he them. I think with me it was mostly just a case of horses for courses and the fact that I really was looking for a Shotokan school. I know people say 'its the teacher not the art' but I really was looking for a certain art. shotokan. and also why i said I didnt necessarily believe the school is a mcdojo.

also want to add that the Kenpo school taught several arts: kenpo, BJJ, kickboxing, thai boxing, and gracie ju jitsu.

Glad to hear you enjoying the Shotokan. Its a wonderful thing to find a great fit with the school.

Thanks. I lucked into it pretty much. The first shotokan school I found....is exactly what a shotokan school should be. =] and I stayed. Been there ever since.

 

[Shawn]

Joking aside here, I think probably one of the other "red flags" is where the GM or senior instructor cannot provide a linage when asked. If you get a dumb look, RUN. If they say oh our GM was directly taught by Bruce Lee, Dan Isanto, Chuck Norris, Jean Claude Van Damme, Steven Segal, Richard "Dick" Marcinko and so on... RUN. .

There are quite a few legitimate instructors out there who were trained directly by Guro Inosanto, and those ranked under him can also truthfully say "our GM was directly taught by Bruce Lee" - and very few of those people (if any) would fall under the McDojo lable.

Shawn

 

[wushuguy]

To compete against the numerous Mcdojos I'm going to start a franchise... I'll open up a Dojo King across the street from the nearest Mcdojo.

:ultracool

 

[matrixman]

Sorry, amigo, I already built a Jack in the Dojo there (or was that dojo in a box? I forget) But you can open up catty corner...

 

[Draven]

Places where you learn "secret ultra deadly" techniques after a month or two of classes.

Hey leave me out of this...

Actually I'm not too worried about people teaching you the "secret ultra deadly" techniques because its the schools that wait 10 years to teach realistic SD training that make the schools who make the claim so effective for marketting. Good post BTW...

 

[JWLuiza]

That's a really good point. I sometimes think some training methods are the SLOWEST way to learn SD.

 

[Draven]

That's a really good point. I sometimes think some training methods are the SLOWEST way to learn SD.

Well there are two ugly facts about MA, 1) All MA schools are businesses and have a bottom line to reach & 2) Most (not all but most) either fast track unworthy students to get more students or slow track students to keep them paying the bills. I teach SD effect with the basics that way you are aware of the effective SD applications while practicing the basics.