Stripes, Stars, & Buttons

[dvcochran]

I recently read a post about a young child's promotion test. They mentioned how the test wasn't for the next belt but instead was a "pre-test" that was one of several stages before testing for the next belt. Our school and organization has always had only the nine traditional Gup belts (colors vary by style). How does your school/organization do promotions and why?

 

[Flying Crane]

I don’t understand the notion of a series of pre-testing. Just test. Make it a belt. If you want fifty tests, then give out the belt in fifty different color shades. In gray.

 

[pdg]

I recently read a post about a young child's promotion test. They mentioned how the test wasn't for the next belt but instead was a "pre-test" that was one of several stages before testing for the next belt. Our school and organization has always had only the nine traditional Gup belts (colors vary by style). How does your school/organization do promotions and why?

Does your 9 include white?

We have 10 including white. But you don't test to get a white belt, you simply sign up.

For junior beginners, there are two extra tests and belts - which are effectively 1/3 of the test an adult white belt would have to take to get yellow stripe (9th kup). Once they've done the 2 junior grades they're on the adult syllabus and do the full test to 9th.

We don't have pretests, or tape stripes, or badges - rather an ongoing assessment in class to judge whether you get invited to test for the next grade.

Well, there is a pretest of sorts really - the invite is to pregrade, which is a lesson in the week or so before the actual test. If you can demonstrate that the ongoing assessment is accurate and you've sufficiently retained the knowledge then you can test proper.

The pregrading session isn't very formal though, it's not a closed session and it doesn't attract any extra fee.

Very junior children (4-7) are on an entirely different syllabus for a set 2 years and have their own set of half white, half colour belts.

 

[jobo]

I don’t understand the notion of a series of pre-testing. Just test. Make it a belt. If you want fifty tests, then give out the belt in fifty different color shades. In gray.

$$$$$?

 

[Dirty Dog]

We have 10 geup ranks, and all are earned. To get the white belt (10th geup) you have to be able to gt through Basic 1 on your own. Takes most people 4-6 weeks, which gives them a chance to try the school without spending money on a uniform and such.
We might "pre-test" someone, but it's not a formal thing. If someone is interested in promoting, and Master Valdez and I are unsure if they're ready, we might have them do a pre-test sort of thing for us. But it's more likely we will just watch their performance in class and decide from that if they're ready to promote.
The belts are white, yellow, green, blue, and red. The sequence has always seemed odd, to me. We go straight from white (10th geup) to yellow (9th geup). Then there's a stripe of the next color for the even numbered geup ranks, so you get a new belt every other promotion. But, since there's no yellow stripe on the white belt, you'll quickly guess that this doesn't cover 10 geup ranks. Only 9. So the red belt (3rd geup) gets a black stripe for 2nd geup, then another black stripe for 1st geup.
The the hald red/half black belt for chodanbo. Since 1st Dan is a teaching rank in our branch of the MDK, chodanbo is seen as a period of transition from student to teacher. And yes, we do work with these students on HOW to teach.

I've always suspected that the plethora of pre-tests and such are a fund raising tool. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, since commercial schools do have to pay the bills, or close the doors.

 

[dvcochran]

Does your 9 include white?

We have 10 including white. But you don't test to get a white belt, you simply sign up.

For junior beginners, there are two extra tests and belts - which are effectively 1/3 of the test an adult white belt would have to take to get yellow stripe (9th kup). Once they've done the 2 junior grades they're on the adult syllabus and do the full test to 9th.

We don't have pretests, or tape stripes, or badges - rather an ongoing assessment in class to judge whether you get invited to test for the next grade.

Well, there is a pretest of sorts really - the invite is to pregrade, which is a lesson in the week or so before the actual test. If you can demonstrate that the ongoing assessment is accurate and you've sufficiently retained the knowledge then you can test proper.

The pregrading session isn't very formal though, it's not a closed session and it doesn't attract any extra fee.

Very junior children (4-7) are on an entirely different syllabus for a set 2 years and have their own set of half white, half colour belts.

Yes, 10 as you describe. I don't see a big problem with a pre-grading session as long as this is no fee. But I have to wonder how this isn't fleshed out during the course of regular class time. Do you require a minimum class time between testings?

 

[JR 137]

I recently read a post about a young child's promotion test. They mentioned how the test wasn't for the next belt but instead was a "pre-test" that was one of several stages before testing for the next belt. Our school and organization has always had only the nine traditional Gup belts (colors vary by style). How does your school/organization do promotions and why?

I’m pretty sure you’re referring to @Michele123 ’s post in her “From Okinawa to Korea” thread regarding her 4 year old son (or was it 4 y/o daughter? I remember a son and a daughter, but I might have the ages confused).

If so, the kid’s 4, so there should be very small mini-tests. That’s if you’re even going to test a 4 y/o to begin with. The way I perceived it is along the lines of how my former school did it:

4 year olds were “Tiny Tigers.” They wore a white belt. They had a bunch of small “tests” (in a 4 year old sense) periodically. For each test they passed, they got a strip of colored electrical tape on their belt. One test would be for the high block. Another would be inside-out block, then outside-in block, etc. It was all basic punches, blocks, some stances, some kicks, etc. When they completed all those stripes and they were 5 they got a camouflage belt and were “Little Dragons.” They’d pick up where they left off with the stripes on the belt by doing more blocks, kicks, etc.

If they went through all that and were 6, they’d be juniors and start at 9th kyu instead of 10th like other new juniors would. Tiny Tigers class was 30 minutes. Little Dragons was 45 minutes, with the first 30 being on their own and the last 15 they were in with the Tiny Tigers.

There were no testing fees for any of that. Testing fees didn’t start until they were in the junior program. Tests in the junior program were typically 45 minutes to an hour, as they progressed. The last few belts before junior black belt were a bit longer, but the kids were typically much older at that point, usually between 11-13 years old.

 

[Michele123]

If you’re talking about my kids, it’s a whole other belt. It has a colored stripe horizontally down the middle. Each test represents 1/3 of the material you’d see in an adult rank. There is a fee, but it is very small compared to normal testing fees. I think it’s mostly to cover the cost of the actual belt. So kids who start at 4 have potentially 4 more ranks than 7&up do. Two extra ranks between white & 8th gup. And two more between 8th & 7th gup.

The purpose is so the kids have a way to see progress. Because of their young age, they learn much slower. It would be disingenuous to promote them to full ranks before they’ve mastered the material. It helps to break down the material into smaller chunks for the kids so they can see they are making progress. Without incremental tests, the kids would test maybe once a year. Kids that age need more concrete evidence of progress. It isn’t a practice test as it is during the same testing window as the whole school. There were hoards of people watching (who were testing later or not) and it was noisy at times.

I would compare these extra ranks to the junior BB ranks in that there is s full test, it is an actual belt rank, but it is a rank that doesn’t exist for the older group.

The kind of belt I’m talking about:

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[dvcochran]

I’m pretty sure you’re referring to @Michele123 ’s post in her “From Okinawa to Korea” thread regarding her 4 year old son (or was it 4 y/o daughter? I remember a son and a daughter, but I might have the ages confused).

If so, the kid’s 4, so there should be very small mini-tests. That’s if you’re even going to test a 4 y/o to begin with. The way I perceived it is along the lines of how my former school did it:

4 year olds were “Tiny Tigers.” They wore a white belt. They had a bunch of small “tests” (in a 4 year old sense) periodically. For each test they passed, they got a strip of colored electrical tape on their belt. One test would be for the high block. Another would be inside-out block, then outside-in block, etc. It was all basic punches, blocks, some stances, some kicks, etc. When they completed all those stripes and they were 5 they got a camouflage belt and were “Little Dragons.” They’d pick up where they left off with the stripes on the belt by doing more blocks, kicks, etc.

If they went through all that and were 6, they’d be juniors and start at 9th kyu instead of 10th like other new juniors would. Tiny Tigers class was 30 minutes. Little Dragons was 45 minutes, with the first 30 being on their own and the last 15 they were in with the Tiny Tigers.

There were no testing fees for any of that. Testing fees didn’t start until they were in the junior program. Tests in the junior program were typically 45 minutes to an hour, as they progressed. The last few belts before junior black belt were a bit longer, but the kids were typically much older at that point, usually between 11-13 years old.

The post you mentioned was one of several that have mentioned promotion systems. I am just curious how/why other schools do what they do. A few have posted how but I think only one has really said why. I get that the system you mentioned can take some load off the instructor(s).

 

[dvcochran]

If you’re talking about my kids, it’s a whole other belt. It has a colored stripe horizontally down the middle. Each test represents 1/3 of the material you’d see in an adult rank. There is a fee, but it is very small compared to normal testing fees. I think it’s mostly to cover the cost of the actual belt. So kids who start at 4 have potentially 4 more ranks than 7&up do. Two extra ranks between white & 8th gup. And two more between 8th & 7th gup.

The purpose is so the kids have a way to see progress. Because of their young age, they learn much slower. It would be disingenuous to promote them to full ranks before they’ve mastered the material. It helps to break down the material into smaller chunks for the kids so they can see they are making progress. Without incremental tests, the kids would test maybe once a year. Kids that age need more concrete evidence of progress. It isn’t a practice test as it is during the same testing window as the whole school. There were hoards of people watching (who were testing later or not) and it was noisy at times.

I would compare these extra ranks to the junior BB ranks in that there is s full test, it is an actual belt rank, but it is a rank that doesn’t exist for the older group.

The kind of belt I’m talking about:

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If you’re talking about my kids, it’s a whole other belt. It has a colored stripe horizontally down the middle. Each test represents 1/3 of the material you’d see in an adult rank. There is a fee, but it is very small compared to normal testing fees. I think it’s mostly to cover the cost of the actual belt. So kids who start at 4 have potentially 4 more ranks than 7&up do. Two extra ranks between white & 8th gup. And two more between 8th & 7th gup.

The purpose is so the kids have a way to see progress. Because of their young age, they learn much slower. It would be disingenuous to promote them to full ranks before they’ve mastered the material. It helps to break down the material into smaller chunks for the kids so they can see they are making progress. Without incremental tests, the kids would test maybe once a year. Kids that age need more concrete evidence of progress. It isn’t a practice test as it is during the same testing window as the whole school. There were hoards of people watching (who were testing later or not) and it was noisy at times.

I would compare these extra ranks to the junior BB ranks in that there is s full test, it is an actual belt rank, but it is a rank that doesn’t exist for the older group.

The kind of belt I’m talking about:

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I was in no way singling you out. There have been many post about belt progression; yours just got me wondering how others were doing theirs.
I wonder if it is not the participation trophy analogy. I am sure schools and instructors worry about the attrition rate but there is a lot of value in learning how to wait. The attention and encouragement can/should still be there. It should not take the proverbial carrot to keep them coming.

 

[pdg]

Yes, 10 as you describe. I don't see a big problem with a pre-grading session as long as this is no fee. But I have to wonder how this isn't fleshed out during the course of regular class time. Do you require a minimum class time between testings?

Don't know about the structure of pregrading or the reasoning behind it, it's usually held in a class I normally attend anyway, and it's not all that different to a normal class either, so it just is what it is...

And yes, there are minimum elapsed times and minimum number of attendances between grades - increasing with grade. It's whichever takes longest too.

 

[hoshin1600]

When my son was 6 and doing Goju Kai karate all the official adult standards applied to children. This ment a long time period between white and the next rank. Maybe a year or so and the standards didn't make exceptions. In order to get around the organization rules my son's instructor would put black dots on their belt. Testing was free and during class. There were four dots before the next rank.

 

[Dirty Dog]

When my son was 6 and doing Goju Kai karate all the official adult standards applied to children. This ment a long time period between white and the next rank. Maybe a year or so and the standards didn't make exceptions. In order to get around the organization rules my son's instructor would put black dots on their belt. Testing was free and during class. There were four dots before the next rank.

That's pretty much how we do it. Except no dots, and the time between belts at lower geup ranks isn't generally that long (though it can be, if progress is not being made...). We don't even change the breaks. Kids break the same size boards as adults.

 

[WaterGal]

I was in no way singling you out. There have been many post about belt progression; yours just got me wondering how others were doing theirs.
I wonder if it is not the participation trophy analogy. I am sure schools and instructors worry about the attrition rate but there is a lot of value in learning how to wait. The attention and encouragement can/should still be there. It should not take the proverbial carrot to keep them coming.

That's a lot to ask of a 4-year old, though. Both in terms of patience etc, and also of skill. Since they don't have very well-developed motor skills, every skill is harder and takes longer, so I think it makes sense to celebrate smaller steps of achievement for them than you would for an older kid.

What we do is, I think, similar to what Michele's school does. Our Little Dragons have 5 belts in between white belt and white/yellow belt (our second TKD belt). They still have to do a test to earn their next belt, they're just testing on a smaller amount of material. I wouldn't consider it a participation trophy- they still have to pay attention and learn the material in order to be eligible to test. (At our last belt test, only about 1/3 of the Little Dragons tested, because the others had been on vacation half the summer and weren't ready.)

 

[pdg]

That's a lot to ask of a 4-year old, though. Both in terms of patience etc, and also of skill. Since they don't have very well-developed motor skills, every skill is harder and takes longer, so I think it makes sense to celebrate smaller steps of achievement for them than you would for an older kid.

What we do is, I think, similar to what Michele's school does. Our Little Dragons have 5 belts in between white belt and white/yellow belt (our second TKD belt). They still have to do a test to earn their next belt, they're just testing on a smaller amount of material. I wouldn't consider it a participation trophy- they still have to pay attention and learn the material in order to be eligible to test. (At our last belt test, only about 1/3 of the Little Dragons tested, because the others had been on vacation half the summer and weren't ready.)

What age are classed as little dragons?

 

[Michele123]

That's a lot to ask of a 4-year old, though. Both in terms of patience etc, and also of skill. Since they don't have very well-developed motor skills, every skill is harder and takes longer, so I think it makes sense to celebrate smaller steps of achievement for them than you would for an older kid.

What we do is, I think, similar to what Michele's school does. Our Little Dragons have 5 belts in between white belt and white/yellow belt (our second TKD belt). They still have to do a test to earn their next belt, they're just testing on a smaller amount of material. I wouldn't consider it a participation trophy- they still have to pay attention and learn the material in order to be eligible to test. (At our last belt test, only about 1/3 of the Little Dragons tested, because the others had been on vacation half the summer and weren't ready.)

Thank you WaterGal. I agree. In my understanding a participation trophy is just for showing up. Dvcochran, If you’ve read my thread you can see that isn’t the case for the in-between ranks. Kids still have to earn it. They have to show up regularly for class but also show they’ve learned the required material. If they don’t show they’ve learned the material, they don’t pass. That doesn’t sound like my understanding of a participation award.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[WaterGal]

What age are classed as little dragons?

For us, it's 4-5 year olds.

 

[dvcochran]

I’m pretty sure you’re referring to @Michele123 ’s post in her “From Okinawa to Korea” thread regarding her 4 year old son (or was it 4 y/o daughter? I remember a son and a daughter, but I might have the ages confused).

If so, the kid’s 4, so there should be very small mini-tests. That’s if you’re even going to test a 4 y/o to begin with. The way I perceived it is along the lines of how my former school did it:

4 year olds were “Tiny Tigers.” They wore a white belt. They had a bunch of small “tests” (in a 4 year old sense) periodically. For each test they passed, they got a strip of colored electrical tape on their belt. One test would be for the high block. Another would be inside-out block, then outside-in block, etc. It was all basic punches, blocks, some stances, some kicks, etc. When they completed all those stripes and they were 5 they got a camouflage belt and were “Little Dragons.” They’d pick up where they left off with the stripes on the belt by doing more blocks, kicks, etc.

If they went through all that and were 6, they’d be juniors and start at 9th kyu instead of 10th like other new juniors would. Tiny Tigers class was 30 minutes. Little Dragons was 45 minutes, with the first 30 being on their own and the last 15 they were in with the Tiny Tigers.

There were no testing fees for any of that. Testing fees didn’t start until they were in the junior program. Tests in the junior program were typically 45 minutes to an hour, as they progressed. The last few belts before junior black belt were a bit longer, but the kids were typically much older at that point, usually between 11-13 years old.

Your description seems the be the common trend now. Because we never did anything different for kids with the exception of testing time on a singular basis, it just seems alien to me. It takes extra effort on the part of the teacher(s) but isn't learning a high block for example just part of regular class? I get that it may make it easier for the teachers but there is too much burden or responsibility lost with that kind of structure. Kids are kids but they can be very different even at the same age. For me it takes a more personal commitment especially for the small kids. If the experience isn't remarkable based on the environment why would I think dangling another piece of electrical tape will keep them coming?

 

[WaterGal]

Your description seems the be the common trend now. Because we never did anything different for kids with the exception of testing time on a singular basis, it just seems alien to me. It takes extra effort on the part of the teacher(s) but isn't learning a high block for example just part of regular class? I get that it may make it easier for the teachers but there is too much burden or responsibility lost with that kind of structure. Kids are kids but they can be very different even at the same age. For me it takes a more personal commitment especially for the small kids. If the experience isn't remarkable based on the environment why would I think dangling another piece of electrical tape will keep them coming?

It's not about making things easier for the teachers, it's about providing a good, compelling, age-appropriate education for kids of different age levels. There are rare exceptions of 4-year olds who can train in the same way as 8-year olds and have the same success - but most won't. Most will flounder and quit.

FWIW, most of our Little Dragons end up sticking with TKD for multiple years and end up moving up into the regular kids class. It's not the extra belts that keep them coming, but it does encourage them and make them feel like they're accomplishing something.

 

[JR 137]

It's not about making things easier for the teachers, it's about providing a good, compelling, age-appropriate education for kids of different age levels. There are rare exceptions of 4-year olds who can train in the same way as 8-year olds and have the same success - but most won't. Most will flounder and quit.

FWIW, most of our Little Dragons end up sticking with TKD for multiple years and end up moving up into the regular kids class. It's not the extra belts that keep them coming, but it does encourage them and make them feel like they're accomplishing something.

Exactly. A four year old brain and body doesn’t work like an older kid’s or adult’s, and therefore shouldn’t be treated as such. Keeping everything age-appropriate is just common sense.