It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose

[skribs113 133]

There's a line from Star Trek: TNG, "It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not weakness, that is life." It's a line that popped into my head recently in a discussion (unrelated to this thread), but I started thinking: is this applicable to martial arts? Is it a helpful analysis tool that maybe we just got caught in the wrong thing, or is it a crutch that holds us back from learning from and fixing our mistakes?

I'm coming at this from two different angles. First, let's say we make the wrong read on a technique. Maybe you're a striker, and you bit on the setup and got hit by the counter. Maybe you're a grappler, and you got tall to avoid the choke, but that opened you up for the sweep. Whatever the case is, you got caught with a technique because you read it wrong. However, had you handled differently, you might have failed as well, but in a different way. I know I have this happen every time I roll with a brown or black belt in BJJ. I think I've figured out the counter to their move, but then they hit me with the next technique in the attack sequence, and the result is the same. Or they feint something else and hit me with the same technique again.

Similarly, it's easy for me to come out of a roll with someone who is bigger, or has wrestling experience, or is an upper belt; and to think, "Yeah they got me, but they have 40 pounds on me" or "I got stuck, but he's been doing this for 10 years and I have for 3". Or we have someone go to a competition and get smoked, and their opponent will get a podium promotion. (This is something that happens with some regularity in BJJ, where you might get promoted to purple belt while on the podium for your blue belt bracket). "Oh, well I didn't lose to a blue belt, I lost to a purple belt."

I personally think it's somewhere in the middle. It's good to learn from your mistakes. But there's only so much bandwidth for learning, and trying to figure out how to beat a black belt or how to smash the folks that are 50 pounds heavier than me isn't necessarily the best use of my time. Learning how to not get caught in a trap that I see 1% of the time isn't the low-hanging fruit I need to be chasing right now. But at the same time, too many excuses and your training becomes an exercise in justification, instead of chasing knowledge.

 

[Prince_Alarming114 144]

The artist Grayson Perry has a saying: "your mistakes form your style" and I think that's true to a certain extent in martial arts as well. The way you learn to deal with a problem that keeps happening is the thing that shapes how you will respond to it in future.

 

[HighKick]

There's a line from Star Trek: TNG, "It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not weakness, that is life." It's a line that popped into my head recently in a discussion (unrelated to this thread), but I started thinking: is this applicable to martial arts? Is it a helpful analysis tool that maybe we just got caught in the wrong thing, or is it a crutch that holds us back from learning from and fixing our mistakes?

I'm coming at this from two different angles. First, let's say we make the wrong read on a technique. Maybe you're a striker, and you bit on the setup and got hit by the counter. Maybe you're a grappler, and you got tall to avoid the choke, but that opened you up for the sweep. Whatever the case is, you got caught with a technique because you read it wrong. However, had you handled differently, you might have failed as well, but in a different way. I know I have this happen every time I roll with a brown or black belt in BJJ. I think I've figured out the counter to their move, but then they hit me with the next technique in the attack sequence, and the result is the same. Or they feint something else and hit me with the same technique again.

Similarly, it's easy for me to come out of a roll with someone who is bigger, or has wrestling experience, or is an upper belt; and to think, "Yeah they got me, but they have 40 pounds on me" or "I got stuck, but he's been doing this for 10 years and I have for 3". Or we have someone go to a competition and get smoked, and their opponent will get a podium promotion. (This is something that happens with some regularity in BJJ, where you might get promoted to purple belt while on the podium for your blue belt bracket). "Oh, well I didn't lose to a blue belt, I lost to a purple belt."

I personally think it's somewhere in the middle. It's good to learn from your mistakes. But there's only so much bandwidth for learning, and trying to figure out how to beat a black belt or how to smash the folks that are 50 pounds heavier than me isn't necessarily the best use of my time. Learning how to not get caught in a trap that I see 1% of the time isn't the low-hanging fruit I need to be chasing right now. But at the same time, too many excuses and your training becomes an exercise in justification, instead of chasing knowledge.

Much of what you say sound very cogent and wise for someone who trains a lot. And while I would say you sound conflicted, not nearly as conflicted as I have heard you in the past. This is a very good thing.
Anyone who has trained regularly for a while have been where you are. Some figure out there is no short answer and keep grinding and learning the most efficient ways for them to improve. Others get frustrated and quit.
I strongly believe the Biggest constant by far is to Never think you have it all figured out. That is when you will get smoked by a 'novice' or get bored with the process.
Remember the opponent who has 40lbs on you or who is 3" taller is Always around the next corner. You have to train for it.

Specific to the OP title, Yes you can 'make no mistakes' and still lose. But that does not mean you did everything right or within your power to win.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf114 144]

Even in those situations where I got smoked, there's almost always something to learn from it. Back when I was fencing, if I realized that I just was outclassed, I changed my mentality. I wasn't trying to be better than them, I was trying new things, tricks, whatever experiments I could and see how they'd work. I managed to beat a future olympian in a bout to 5 our first time fencing, because I had 3 different tricks he wasn't expecting/hadn't seen, and two of them worked twice (I fenced him/we trained together daily afterwards, and don't recall ever beating him again in a scored bout).

That said, I did have at least one instance that still sticks with me - a fencer for Penn State. He had at least 10 years experience on me, same style as me, was faster, taller, and his techniques were better. None of my tricks did anything. That's the one bout that I've chalked up to "He was just too good."

 

[Marsha Larts]

Testing my taiji in the early days in MMA and grappling tournaments, I only focused on one or two things in each match (stick-follow, yielding, passive forward pressure, etc) and didn't think about winning or losing. Win some, lose some, no big deal.

"I train to win" isn't in the taiji vernacular. I always trained taiji for failure and explored methods for recovery.

Better to get beat by the best than to beat the rest. It's just training, after all

Training for an upcoming MMA match, some of my training partners asked what things a person should do when they find themselves in a hockey-style fight where the other person grabs their jacket or shirt and smashes on them with their free hand. Having played hockey for years as a kid, I know it's different almost every time, but there are certain things that are commonly done to counter those kinds of attacks. Never tried it in a sportive environment without skates and pads. I knew the promoter of the event and told him I would wear a judogi and wouldn't wear gloves thus restricting my hitting to open-hand and only above the eyes and ears - no fists and no slapping. It went down as I expected it would until the opp tapped to a choke.

 

[drop bear114 53]

 

[Appledog50 3]

Fighting, if that is what you mean, is not deterministic. You don't necessarily have to not make any mistakes; your opponent could simply be better than you.

That being said, people make mistakes all the time and one way to judge how effective your martial art is, would be how it trains you out of making those mistakes and guides you along a path where you can be the best you can be.

 

[Kung Fu Wang114 144]

In Chinese wrestling, there is a strategy that you open one side and shut down the other side. For example, you will allow your opponent to attack through your right side. You won't allow your opponent to attack through your left side. Since most of your opponent are right side people, this strategy will make them very uncomfortable. They can only attack you with their weak left side. They can't attack you with their strong right side.

The advantage of this strategy is you make a fight simple. You only have to worry about 1/2 of the situation.

If your opponent attacks your

- left side, you shut him down.
- right side, you invite him in and counter him.

 

[isshinryuronin4 3]

Even in those situations where I got smoked, there's almost always something to learn from it. Back when I was fencing, if I realized that I just was outclassed, I changed my mentality. I wasn't trying to be better than them, I was trying new things, tricks, whatever experiments I could and see how they'd work. I managed to beat a future olympian in a bout to 5 our first time fencing, because I had 3 different tricks he wasn't expecting/hadn't seen, and two of them worked twice (I fenced him/we trained together daily afterwards, and don't recall ever beating him again in a scored bout).

That said, I did have at least one instance that still sticks with me - a fencer for Penn State. He had at least 10 years experience on me, same style as me, was faster, taller, and his techniques were better. None of my tricks did anything. That's the one bout that I've chalked up to "He was just too good."

I had a similar experience in college where, as a new student, I smoked their top guy. Like you, I did stuff he had never seen. The stuff was a lot of rough backyard fencing I did with a buddy (often getting bloodied as we used no equipment other than the foil) and my karate experience. The only formal fencing training we had was the prior summer when we had weekly private lessons from a retired Olympic fencing coach (free - he was a very nice French Belgian gentleman). Actually, most all of the other college fencers were better than me. I just relied on "shock and awe." My buddy who also took the fencing club class did a lunge and snapped his blade on the guy's chest - I was the only one who laughed.

 

[Kung Fu Wang114 144]

Even in those situations where I got smoked, there's almost always something to learn from it.

In 1984, during the final Chinese wrestling championship match in super heavy weight division, during the 1st round, I controlled my opponent's right arm. My opponent swept my left leg. Since my left hand was on top of my opponent's right arm, I couldn't move my left hand down. That sweep took me down and I lost the 1st round. I knew my opponent would do it again. The 2nd time he swept my left leg, my left hand controlled his right arm, but my left hand was below his right arm. I dropped down my left hand, caught his right sweeping leg, and took him down. I won the 2nd round. Again. My opponent repeated the same right foot sweep to my left leg, and I repeated the same counter to use my left hand to catch his right sweeping leg. I won the 3rd round. I then won the super heavy weight championship that year.

The difference was, after I lost my 1st round, I learned my mistake. After my opponent lost his 2nd round, my opponent didn't learn his mistake.

 

[isshinryuronin4 3]

The difference was, after I lost my 1st round, I learned my mistake. After my opponent lost his 2nd round, my opponent didn't learn his mistake.

A famous karate master said, "Don't thing about winning, think about not losing." Maybe that guy lost because he was too intent on winning, rather than learning how not to lose.

 

[Kung Fu Wang114 144]

A famous karate master said, "Don't thing about winning, think about not losing." Maybe that guy lost because he was too intent on winning, rather than learning how not to lose.

My opponent was an honest guy. After the 2nd round, if he just played 100% defense and let the time passed by, our score could be 1-1 and I might not win that year.

My opponent had 30 lb more weight advantage than me. He was super heavy weight. I was only heavy weight and put myself in testing for super heavy weight.

I still remember my 1st opponent that year, his arm muscle was bigger than my leg muscle. I still defeated him with 2-0. That was 41 years ago.

 

[HighKick]

Even in those situations where I got smoked, there's almost always something to learn from it. Back when I was fencing, if I realized that I just was outclassed, I changed my mentality. I wasn't trying to be better than them, I was trying new things, tricks, whatever experiments I could and see how they'd work. I managed to beat a future olympian in a bout to 5 our first time fencing, because I had 3 different tricks he wasn't expecting/hadn't seen, and two of them worked twice (I fenced him/we trained together daily afterwards, and don't recall ever beating him again in a scored bout).

That said, I did have at least one instance that still sticks with me - a fencer for Penn State. He had at least 10 years experience on me, same style as me, was faster, taller, and his techniques were better. None of my tricks did anything. That's the one bout that I've chalked up to "He was just too good."

That is the guy I would want to train/compete with as much as I could. Best experience ever.

 

[Prince_Alarming114 144]

View attachment 33517

Words to be hung on the wall in every dojo

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf114 144]

That is the guy I would want to train/compete with as much as I could. Best experience ever.

He was part of a college we fenced against 1-2 times a year, and if I remember right the year I fenced him was his senior year. Would be very curious to see how we'd compare if the years matched up so that my senior self fenced his senior self

 

[Anarax]

A solid quote from Picard. Some additional context; Data was serving as Picard's first officer in a war game against Riker commanding his own ship. Data faced a mental(with his positronic brain) setback when he lost a game based on speed and processing power against an organic alien. The loss of that game caused Data to doubt himself and his abilities. The full quote is "It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness; that is life". The original context was to convince Data that losing is part of life, no matter how prepared or "superior" you are.

I think this applies to training, more so in the context of putting your ego aside. Meaning, you're gonna get submitted on the mats, pieced up in sparring or ragdolled by a Judoka. We do the best we can at the time, through training, our best become better through "failure" or "losses".

Data has a game rematch with the organic alien and beats him. Through losing, he learned how to become better, both as an officer and as a competitor.

 

[Anarax]

Even in those situations where I got smoked, there's almost always something to learn from it. Back when I was fencing, if I realized that I just was outclassed, I changed my mentality. I wasn't trying to be better than them, I was trying new things, tricks, whatever experiments I could and see how they'd work. I managed to beat a future olympian in a bout to 5 our first time fencing, because I had 3 different tricks he wasn't expecting/hadn't seen, and two of them worked twice (I fenced him/we trained together daily afterwards, and don't recall ever beating him again in a scored bout).

That said, I did have at least one instance that still sticks with me - a fencer for Penn State. He had at least 10 years experience on me, same style as me, was faster, taller, and his techniques were better. None of my tricks did anything. That's the one bout that I've chalked up to "He was just too good."

What weapon did you fence?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf114 144]

What weapon did you fence?

Epee and foil. Mainly epee