Starting your own System, That is the Question?

[Xue Sheng]

This is a very interesting topic.

I tend to agree with Andrew Green, but let me add another perspective from my style Yang Style Tai Chi

Yang Chienhou and his brother Yang Panhou learned Tai Chi from their father Yang Luchan.

Yang Luchan learned Chen style Tai Chi from the Chen family and changed it to Yang style.

Yang Chienhou oldest son Yang Shaohao learned Tai Chi mainly from his uncle Yang Yang Panhou and taught the family style intact. Yang Chienhou youngest son Yang Changfu learned Tai Chi from his father Yang Cheinhou. However Yang Changfu changed the family style to basically what we call traditional Yang style today. If you want to see the pre-Yang Changfu style that was practiced by Yang Panhao, first it is rare, but this is the style that Yang Jwing Ming does at YMAA.

Yang Chengfu had a student Tung Ying Chieh who for his entire life taught Yang style Tai Chi. It was not until his son or possibly grandson that Tung style was talked about. And many of Sifu Tung’s students still say they teach Yang style. Also there is Cheng Manching who changed Yang style and as far as I know it was referred to as Yang style or Cheng Manching Yang style.

It was not until Yang Chengfu’s youngest son Yang Zhenduo that the Yang family itself drew a line between Tung, Cheng Manching and the Yang family. It is also possible at that time that the Yang family may have drawn a line between the Yang style of Yang Chengfu and his uncle Yang Panhou.

In the case of the Yang family, new styles of tai chi were made by decree of the Yang family itself.

 

[Kreth]

The problem with a lot of these new systems is that they're created by someone with only a few years of experience. This is especially prevalent in ninjutsu, where you see a plethora of individuals with a couple of years in the Bujinkan, Genbukan, or Jinenkan who then move on to invent their own style. Even worse, are those who make up a lineage in Koga-ryu Ninjitsu [sic], and usually throw in some falsified military history in an attempt to add legitimacy to their background (Marine Recon and Army Rangers seem to be the two current faves).

 

[Grenadier]

It all depends on what the applications will be.

If someone wants to open up a school that trains people to thrive in a mixed martial arts competition setting, then being a dilettant in multiple styles could certainly make one qualified enough to teach, in terms of technical knowledge. If someone had, say, a 2nd degree black belt in one of the various styles of Karate, as well as a black belt in Jiu-Jitsu, and some wrestling experience, is able to combine all three aspects into a well-rounded system, and can effectively teach others how to do it, then I would certainly consider this a valid new system for its own purposes. Given how most MMA'ers these days, do not specialize in one particular art, but instead, train in all aspects, this does seem to work.

Of course, this assumes that the above individual (or his students) has demonstrated at least a modicum of success in the arena. They do what they say they are going to do, and that's that.


In terms of creating a new traditional system, that's a good bit more complex. One would have to be well-established in a particular style, to gain some credibility in the first place. This is pretty much a requirement, especially since there were a good number of folks who suddenly became Soke's in their own rights (hence some clever wag coining the term of 'Sokemon'), but lacked credentials. This sudden abundance of Soke's popping up out of nowhere is what has bred a good bit of suspicion in the traditional martial arts community.

Can it still be done? Of course. If, say, one of the senior students of a particular martial arts system has significant experience in one or more other styles, and incorporates different aspects into his teaching and training in a conservative manner, then there's a good chance that he could lay claim to having started a new system. Some of Hiranori Ohtsuka's senior students did that (with his blessing, too), and at least two of them have systems that are thriving quite well to this date. The key thing here, though, is that each of them were already very well-advanced in the Wado system, and had significant experience in other styles as well.

One question that many would ask, is "where do you draw the line? After incorporating so many aspects of other systems, when is the original style no longer the original style?"

I can't really answer that. Some styles are ecclectic, and do change with the times, as they see fit. If they think that using another system's methods can improve their own system, then they'll incorporate it and make it their own as well, and NOT change the name.

Others are rooted, and making any kind of changes is like trying to twist the arm of a big palooka.

All in all, someone who is, say, a 2nd dan in one style, and perhaps a 1st dan in another style, who creates his own "traditional" system, would probably not be looked upon with respect. He would probably need a decent lineage, and one that can be relatively easily traced. Sorry, but the certificates coming from our favorite neo-ninja, Radford D., don't count!

 

[Xue Sheng]

The problem with a lot of these new systems is that they're created by someone with only a few years of experience. This is especially prevalent in ninjutsu, where you see a plethora of individuals with a couple of years in the Bujinkan, Genbukan, or Jinenkan who then move on to invent their own style. Even worse, are those who make up a lineage in Koga-ryu Ninjitsu [sic], and usually throw in some falsified military history in an attempt to add legitimacy to their background (Marine Recon and Army Rangers seem to be the two current faves).

Well I have a few years of Jujitsu, a few years of TDK, a few years of Shaolin, Xingyi and Bagua. Some training in Chen style and Wu, a whole lot of training in Yang style with a dash of Sanda

Thus Xuefu was born

I agree, there are those with little experience in a given art or arts that try and combine them into a new art possibly for, as previously mentioned, ego reason and great desire to be called Grand master.

I however prefer evil overlord of Xuefu myself

 

[tradrockrat]

I'd like to throw a (not so) hypothetical out there -

Say you have trained in several styles, but have only "mastered" one. That is, you've only achieved high rank - say at least 3rd degree, dan, whatever. And say that this particular style is under significant scuitiny right now due to people/ leaders in it. As a teacher of the style, would creating a "new" style using this style as a base and incorporating techniques and skill sets from other arts you've studied be a bad thing? Especially if you are doing this to AVOID politics rather than play king? and considering this what you teach already?

I think this has most of the answer:

Teach what you teach, don't worry about creating a name, belt system, association and all the other nonsense. If you are doing this because you've trained around and it is just what you do teach it as that, let your students do the same.

The last thing we need is more high rank, more "styles" and more associations. Ignore that and do what you do.

But is it wrong to create a fresh start?


This debate is very timely for me as I'm planning on bucking some serious displeasure and tradition by starting my own school. I don't pretend to be "the man" and do not claim to be a "master" at some new style, but I'm good at what I do and I don't have any desire to play by the old rules of my organization - at all.

does this mean in fact that I am creating my own style?


any comments are appreciated - sorry if this seems like a thread hijack - I don't mean it to be.

EDIT: The issue that concerns me is promotion of belts within the school. Who says that I have the right to promote belts if I am outcast from my organization? The answer is "Me". So am I some grand poo-bah? 10 years from now when i need to start thinking about those two or three 2nd level blackbelts and thier future - what is this 4th level (me) going to be able to do?

 

[still learning]

Hello, Remember there are no rules here for starting your own school/system.

Like any Restauant/Hamburger joint...anyone can open one and call it anything they want too.

Many martial artist today train in a variety of arts/styles and combine them for there own purpose.

In reality there is nothing new about martial arts....people may make it look/feel different. But it is all about fighting with two hands,arms and two legs....one brain.

Even Bruce Lee...people think his was a new style/system...many others had combine many arts together...before he was born....but he got lot of credits........Do your research.

Our Kempo is always changing,some instructors' left and started there own systems, new names added too.

It is all about MONEY/ and new schools/systems...are NEW BUSINESS...

Anyone can start one..............Aloha

PS: New Aloha Style....give the LEI first......than?

 

[pstarr]

Before attempting to create a new system, an individual needs to be thoroughly skilled in the system which he/she currently trains. That doesn't mean spending just 10 or 20 years in it, either-

And he/she needs to know WHY a "new" system is being created; what does it offer that's different and of equal or greater value to its students?

Or, like Matt Stone pointed out, is it just a new way of helping people empty their wallets?

 

[Jimi]

Hey Tradrockrat, I know what you are capable of teaching, and I think others who may make a stink over you teaching just shows their own insecurity. With your knowledge you should easily find another association willing to stand with you. I have certification signed by 3 instructors, all with 5th Degree BBs or higher, I can teach. You know I am not some money grubbing wanna be grand poo ba, I enjoy teaching when I can, luckily I no longer rely on MA instruction for my sole livelyhood, so I teach and train when I want and have time. You would have more people standing with you than you realize, myself included. When some one wants the walking stick among other things, they will look to you, when our instructor wants to show an old friend hooked cane or short stick tech's he yells JAMES! and I come running. We have both helped people who out rank us because of what we can share, not what we hold exclusive from everyone else. Keep your chin up, or is it chin down, eyes & hands up etc... PEACE