Sport And TMA....Again

[lklawson]

Pulling guard isn't a technique. It's a tactic used in competitions. In a competition, points are awarded for a takedown, but not for pulling guard. So, if I'm confident that my bottom game is very good, I can opt to pull guard and get the fight to the ground without conceding two points, and I can then get my own two points for a sweep. So, really, any mention of pulling guard in a discussion about anything other than a game plan for a BJJ or Submission Grappling even is inappropriate. It's as relevant as discussing board breaking.

With regards to the topic at hand, however, the confidence that a jiu jitiero has from the bottom is, I believe, well founded. No one would WANT to be on the bottom, on the ground, in a self defense scenario. However, the average jiu jitiero will be able to create space to return to standing, or reverse position and then choose to engage on the ground OR disengage and return to standing (whether to run away or not). The differences between Judo, Sambo, modern CACC wrestling and BJJ isn't so much in the techniques taught. It's about philosophy and emphasis. This isn't good or bad, IMO. It just is what it is.

I think that "reality based" arts often suffer from a lack of pressure testing. While a competitive element may focus training, I think that it would be easier for the average competitor to translate skills to practical, effective self defense, than it would be for the average non-competitor.

I regret that I can only hit "thanks" on this post once.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Steve]

Nothing we do in my training facility is considered a competition by those who walk through the doors and that's all that really matters unless you just want me to argue back and forth with you......done that already on the other thread.

i think you have a unique definition of competition.

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[SENC-33]

i think you have a unique definition of competition.

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Competition to me is two parties striving for something that can't be shared.......When guys walk through my doors we do the exact opposite. We share our time, our resources and our knowledge for a greater goal called self preservation.

But I can see why you wouldn't understand that

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I assume "sport" may mean "cross training" and TMA may mean to "keep system pure" (it may not mean "cross training"). I also assume that we are not talking about sport such as boxing, wrestling, Judo, ... here. So the discussion of "sport" vs. "TMA" is really to discuss whether or not the "cross training" is necessary, or whether or not TMA is against "cross training".

Here is a question. When your opponent tries to punch you, will you

1. block his punch?
2. dodge his punch?
3. wrap his punching arms to obtain "clinch"?

If you apply the 1st and the 2nd strategies, your opponent will punch you again. If you apply the 3rd strategy, what will you do after you have obtained a "clinch"? In order to continue after "clinch", you have to be good in grappling. If "cross training" is a must then "sport testing" is also a must. When you take this approach, I truly don't see any difference between "sport" and "TMA".

We all know that it's better to use

- striking to against a grappler.
- grappling to against a striker.

If you want to have both abilities, your will need to "cross train" and you will need to test your integration of striking and grappling in "sport".

 

[Hanzou]

No, it isn't.

Getting stood up after 5 seconds isn't penalizing newaza?

That's not penalizing newaza. That's like saying that Lancashire Catch Wrestling penalizes ground work for getting a solid back-throw. No. It just means that a certain, very specific, "method" of you hitting the ground costs you points.

You win the match if your opponent gets thrown on their back. The back is a highly defensive position in newaza, and not being able to land on your back into a defensive position on the ground does penalize newaza.

 

[Hanzou]

Of course it happens.....I don't believe YOU to be one who has done it.

Is there a reason you're making this personal? There's no need for that.

 

[SENC-33]

Is there a reason you're making this personal?

Sorry if you feel that way......certainly not my intentions.

 

[Steve]

Competition to me is two parties striving for something that can't be shared

As I said, your definition of competition is unique. You have a room, you have rules, you have safety gear, and you have a singular goal for which both competitors strive. I think that pretty well describes any competition.

Now, sport takes competition a little further.

When guys walk through my doors we do the exact opposite. We share our time, our resources and our knowledge for a greater goal called self preservation.

But I can see why you wouldn't understand that

You just can't seem to help yourself. Snide personal insults aside, it sounds like you train with like minded guys in what you believe to be an ego-free environment. I think that if you ever spent time in a quality MMA or BJJ school, you'd be pleasantly surprised at the fellowship and lack of ego.

 

[Steve]

Of course it happens.....I don't believe YOU to be one who has done it.

Injuries in BJJ competitions are really pretty rare. That said, in my experience, injuries in competition are most likely to occur either at the very lowest levels or among the elite guys for whom championships are a means to making a living.

White belts in competition are more about aggression than technique, and they often don't have the technical ability to defend submissions correctly. Sometimes, they will not even realize the danger they're in until it's too late. There's also the tendency for adrenaline to kick in and impair judgement. The referee is there to keep the athletes safe, and, at least locally, the refs will step in and "tap" for the competitor if they're too stupid to do it themselves... at least for white belts. This goes double for kids.

At blue or above, it's presumed that you know what you're doing. At the highest levels, in the adult black belt divisions, there is more on the line, and so you will sometimes see guys like Jacare continue grappling even after his arm is broken.

But again, while the techniques are effective it is FAR more common for someone to be rendered unconscious than to see an elbow or shoulder get seriously injured. Most people will tap.

 

[ballen0351]

I assume "sport" may mean "cross training" and TMA may mean to "keep system pure" (it may not mean "cross training"). I also assume that we are not talking about sport such as boxing, wrestling, Judo, ... here. So the discussion of "sport" vs. "TMA" is really to discuss whether or not the "cross training" is necessary, or whether or not TMA is against "cross training".

Here is a question. When your opponent tries to punch you, will you

1. block his punch?
2. dodge his punch?
3. wrap his punching arms to obtain "clinch"?

If you apply the 1st and the 2nd strategies, your opponent will punch you again. If you apply the 3rd strategy, what will you do after you have obtained a "clinch"? In order to continue after "clinch", you have to be good in grappling. If "cross training" is a must then "sport testing" is also a must. When you take this approach, I truly don't see any difference between "sport" and "TMA".

We all know that it's better to use

- striking to against a grappler.
- grappling to against a striker.

If you want to have both abilities, your will need to "cross train" and you will need to test your integration of striking and grappling in "sport".

You do realize there is more to option 1 and 2 besides block or dodge right?
Dodge and counter strike hard enough and he's not hitting you back.

 

[Kframe]

Can we PLEASE stop using YouTube to "prove" stuff?

Why RTKDCMB? A nice cross section of martial arts, including TKD was shown and they got defeated. It seams every time this type of video is posted, the same comment gets thrown out. "Oh he was not a good xxxx practitioner." The comments are always vague saying they lacked basic fundamentals. These comments crop up every single time. IF there are so many Great TMA out there, why are they not being represented? Why haven't they accepted the challenge and proven them selves and there art legit?

I keep hearing about all these fantastic TMA that wouldn't fall prey, yet they never appear.

I honestly don't care what anyone learns, they need to do more then a few minutes of ground grappling every week so they don't spaz out when they inevitably get taken down.

 

[ballen0351]

Why RTKDCMB? A nice cross section of martial arts, including TKD was shown and they got defeated. It seams every time this type of video is posted, the same comment gets thrown out. "Oh he was not a good xxxx practitioner." The comments are always vague saying they lacked basic fundamentals. These comments crop up every single time. IF there are so many Great TMA out there, why are they not being represented? Why haven't they accepted the challenge and proven them selves and there art legit?

I keep hearing about all these fantastic TMA that wouldn't fall prey, yet they never appear.

I honestly don't care what anyone learns, they need to do more then a few minutes of ground grappling every week so they don't spaz out when they inevitably get taken down.

Why? Because it proves nothing other then that guy lost that day to that guy. Thats it. Its means nothing beyond that

 

[Kframe]

Why? Because it proves nothing other then that guy lost that day to that guy. Thats it. Its means nothing beyond that

Ballen your are incorrect. It means more. So much more.

 

[ballen0351]

Ballen your are incorrect. It means more. So much more.

So if Joe schmoe from the street caught a Gracie with a lucky punch and KOed him would that mean BJJ failed. Or would it mean on that day at that time Gracie got caught. You tube clips only prove what you want to see.

 

[Aiki Lee]

A sport element CAN be helpful (itcertainly can't hurt) but I find I get more out of scenario based training whenit comes to self defense. The trick is knowing how to go about it correctly andsafely and that obviously comes down to having experienced individuals leadingthe way. Knowing how to move, how to utilize focus mitts and other pads andshields. I wasn't keen on the slow speed of Systema until I was instructed onhow to approach it properly.

I would agree that SD training works best when approachedfrom a scenario type exercise. I would disagree where you say that a sportelement can’t hurt someone’s SD training. If competitive elements are the onlyway a school pressure tests then there are always going to be limitations aboutwhat tactics someone can or can’t employ. Think of all the targets you wouldattack in SD and why you wouldn’t want to do that in a competiton. So you caneither go fast and hard and eliminate certain tools from your tool box duringtraining or you can keep those tools and go slower.
If I tap your ankle to simulate a crushing attack and youignore it because I didn’t use enough force and you didn’t notice you shouldhave responded for the sake of the exercise then that exchange benefits no one.Focusing too much on a competitive atmosphere will hinder the learningenvironment. There is a place for both if you want competition, but if you arelooking for SD then competition can on occasions hinder your progress.

I think that "reality based" arts often suffer from a lack ofpressure testing. While a competitive element may focus training, I think thatit would be easier for the average competitor to translate skills to practical,effective self defense, than it would be for the averagenon-competitor.

I agree that on average a competitor will be able totranslate his/her skills more easily than someone with no pressure testing.However I still stand by scenario based pressure testing as a more reliablemethod to improve SD skills over competition. I think you and I would agreethat pressure testing is required to build realistic skill.

A nice cross section of martialarts, including TKD was shown and they got defeated. It seams every time thistype of video is posted, the same comment gets thrown out. "Oh he was nota good xxxx practitioner." The comments are always vague saying theylacked basic fundamentals. .

A very limited cross section of very poor performers wasshown, not a nice cross section. What’s vague about saying they lacked basicfundamentals? Clearly the opponents in the videos I watched did not maintaincontrol of distance and were attmepting to winnable strategies. That may betheir fault, or the fault of their teachers for not properly instructing them,but it does not reflect an entire art. It shows that Gracie is a good martialartist and a good teacher as his students appear able to replicate his actions.However soemone culd come along with limited knowledge of his system and poorlyteach it to others, which is what happened with many karate systems over theyears.

These comments crop up every singletime. IF there are so many Great TMA out there, why are they not beingrepresented? Why haven't they accepted the challenge and proven them selves andthere art legit?

Probably because they aren’t meant for that kind ofcompetition. I see the opponents in the videos attempting to fight the same wayGracie does. They are playing his game and they are losing because he is thebest at it. Gracie is a great martial artist because he is manipulating hisopponent into playing to his strengths. The others are not doing that.
For many TMA many of their strategies do not apply in acompetition like that. Any raking action with the hands is illegal but a greatSD tool in many systems. Half of the tactics I like to employ rely on a personbeing committed to causing harm and not wanting me to escape and don’t workwith the type of energy emitted by people in a competition. That leaves manyTMA practitioners with many of the same skills an MMA fighter would have, butthey don’t practice them nearly as often.
To be as good at competitions as an MMA fighter I wouldhave to neglect a large majority of my training that I enjoy and work betterfor SD. I’m not interested in limiting myself. That’s what competition does, itlimits your skills for the purpose of prolonging a fight for sport. That’s nota bad thing if you like to compete and test yourself that way, it just isn’t thesame goal that other MAs have.

I honestly don't care what anyone learns, they need to do more then a fewminutes of ground grappling every week so they don't spaz out when theyinevitably get taken down.

Now realistically for SD I think some ground fightingskills are necessary. I don’t think anyone debates that. But you don’t have tofight like they do in competition. In my opinion it is good to know some ofthat so you can be aware of what someone is trying to do to you if they havebasic understanding of grappling, but I don’t have to play that game. If I’mfighting on the ground I would much rather fight for a superior position fromwhere I could make my escape than continue rolling with him on the ground wherein all likelihood I won’t be as good as he is.

 

[Kframe]

Himura. My point is, that you need to train the high percentage maneuvers more often because they are the ones that set up the Illegal for competition low percentage maneuvers. It is easier to perform that face rake(I assume that's what your talking about) if you can deal with this strikes and distract him with your own. One thing I don't understand about my new art of budo taijutsu is the lack of separating the striking and striking defense and getting lots of reps on them. So far I have seen no use of strike shields and focus mits. The striking and striking defense aspect is IMHO so very important to setting up everything else.

I whole heartedly agree with you regarding TMA and ground. I would expand what your saying with this. There needs to be a focus on the main positions. Guard/mount both bottom and top/ half guard and side guard. I think that tma that want to do something on the ground besides spaz out need to put in many repititons on escaping each of those situations. I would also put attention in to the escape bottom of mount with punch defense. Another thing, that I notice is, that many tma that fall prey to when they get taken down by a grappler is they end up on top, in guard then get pulled down, into the bottom guys armpits and then guillotined. They need to learn to avoid that, and learn basic submission defense from each position. Grapplers are more vulnerable when they are going for a submission. I think that, if they focus on those basic things, and actually put in a lot of time practicing it, more then a few minutes a week they would be ok.

They don't need 600+ techniques, but they do need to put in quality time on a the things I outlined above and they will do just fine. I just feel they don't do enough time dedicated to it. Heck bring in a BJJ guy and let your guys go to town on him. They will learn a lot.

 

[Cyriacus]

Ballen your are incorrect. It means more. So much more.

So if Joe schmoe from the street caught a Gracie with a lucky punch and KOed him would that mean BJJ failed. Or would it mean on that day at that time Gracie got caught. You tube clips only prove what you want to see.

Ill bite.

Id argue that a sucker punch or tackle or whatever sort of precludes a whole lot of things. But after you get sucker punched or tackled, i cant help but think itd be nice to have some experience, whether its through an art of a course or grabbing a friend and figuring it out or whatever, in how to get out of your now detrimental position, since youre still conscious to do that apparently.

By this reasoning, for that particular situation, its the persons ability to get up and not get beaten on moreso than what art they studied. But those videos werent of street ambushes. They were consensual matches held in various places and with various people. Videos of people being grappled in MMA as opposed to the number who get struck trying to grapple (as opposed to being defensively grappled) would probably be better for trying to make a point, but thats still in a specific arena where it makes sense.

Im with both of you.
Just my point of view.

 

[Kframe]

Himura, you mentioned that the defeated opponents tried to fight gracies way. My question is, what if a art is a close range standing grappling heavy art like Hapkido or budo taijutsu(at least from what I have done so far it seams that way)? Arts like that, in their strongest area are in the gracies as well. It could be argued though that the hapkidoan could just stay at range and kick him and keep back peddling but, then that wouldn't be Hapkido that would be TKD. Edit to add. I mentioned Hapkido because in one Gracie challenge video the poor guy tries 3 times and it just gets worse and worse. He even tries to grab Roylers jewels during one exchange and still didn't work.

So what is your opinion on that. What if your art, is at its strongest, up close and that is exactly were the gracies wanted it??

 

[Kframe]

Ill bite.

Id argue that a sucker punch or tackle or whatever sort of precludes a whole lot of things. But after you get sucker punched or tackled, i cant help but think itd be nice to have some experience, whether its through an art of a course or grabbing a friend and figuring it out or whatever, in how to get out of your now detrimental position, since youre still conscious to do that apparently.

By this reasoning, for that particular situation, its the persons ability to get up and not get beaten on moreso than what art they studied. But those videos werent of street ambushes. They were consensual matches held in various places and with various people. Videos of people being grappled in MMA as opposed to the number who get struck trying to grapple (as opposed to being defensively grappled) would probably be better for trying to make a point, but thats still in a specific arena where it makes sense.

Im with both of you.
Just my point of view.

Can you clarify that. Im dense and trying to figure out what your exactly saying in your second paragraph?

 

[ballen0351]

Ill bite.

Id argue that a sucker punch or tackle or whatever sort of precludes a whole lot of things. But after you get sucker punched or tackled, i cant help but think itd be nice to have some experience, whether its through an art of a course or grabbing a friend and figuring it out or whatever, in how to get out of your now detrimental position, since youre still conscious to do that apparently.

By this reasoning, for that particular situation, its the persons ability to get up and not get beaten on moreso than what art they studied. But those videos werent of street ambushes. They were consensual matches held in various places and with various people. Videos of people being grappled in MMA as opposed to the number who get struck trying to grapple (as opposed to being defensively grappled) would probably be better for trying to make a point, but thats still in a specific arena where it makes sense.

Im with both of you.
Just my point of view.

You don't need to sucker punch someone to get a lucky punch. They happen all the time in the UFC the crazy knock out that shouldn't have happened but did. Does that mean that guy was better or does it mean he got lucky. Was Matt Serra a better fighter then GSP or on that night at that time did he win? That's the point of these videos all it proved was one guy beat the other at that time. Were the Gracie's better? Yes I'm sure they are because they were the top of their field hell they practically invented their field.