Sport And TMA....Again

[Spinedoc]

Just as a refresher, please take note of my OP:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/112643-Sport-And-TMA-Again?p=1610449#post1610449

Here is the question:

"So, what are your thoughts? Do people in the arts need preset techs. to use as a base, to defend against the things I mentioned above, or is just pure fighting skill, such as we'd see in the ring, good enough?"

Let's stick to the topic please.

Yes would be my answer, because you need to build muscle memory. Let's think of another sport. Pick one. Golf, Tennis, Basketball, any skill sport. All work on the fundamentals. I played tennis at a high level as a junior. I remember hitting balls off of a brick wall for so long that I would almost fall asleep. Golf.....do you think Tiger Woods is thinking about everything as he swings? No. This stuff has to be ingrained into you, because the moment is just that....a moment. It's the same in a fight. You can't think. You try to anticipate and react. IMO, preset techs help to establish those fundamentals. That base from which to work from. And you have to do them 100,000 times. They have to be ingrained into the subconcious realm of your brain.

There's a great book on tennis, called "Inner Tennis", and it talks about how most tennis matches are won before they are even played. It's the mental things. Thinking about everything....well, that kills you. You need to let go, and play instinctively but with good form through hundreds of hours of practice. You need to think about strategy, not "how should I hit this forehand"....

The same concepts apply to the MA, with a more serious outcome. YMMV.

Mike

 

[SENC-33]

I built a dark room 8' x 10' padded......You put 2 guys in it with headgear and eye protection and one has to get out (no punching). You have to rely on instinct and creativity with your arms, hands and body movement. This helps with your split second decision making and increases your ability to react without thinking because you can't see

 

[Steve]

Pulling guard isn't a technique. It's a tactic used in competitions. In a competition, points are awarded for a takedown, but not for pulling guard. So, if I'm confident that my bottom game is very good, I can opt to pull guard and get the fight to the ground without conceding two points, and I can then get my own two points for a sweep. So, really, any mention of pulling guard in a discussion about anything other than a game plan for a BJJ or Submission Grappling even is inappropriate. It's as relevant as discussing board breaking.

With regards to the topic at hand, however, the confidence that a jiu jitiero has from the bottom is, I believe, well founded. No one would WANT to be on the bottom, on the ground, in a self defense scenario. However, the average jiu jitiero will be able to create space to return to standing, or reverse position and then choose to engage on the ground OR disengage and return to standing (whether to run away or not). The differences between Judo, Sambo, modern CACC wrestling and BJJ isn't so much in the techniques taught. It's about philosophy and emphasis. This isn't good or bad, IMO. It just is what it is.

I think that "reality based" arts often suffer from a lack of pressure testing. While a competitive element may focus training, I think that it would be easier for the average competitor to translate skills to practical, effective self defense, than it would be for the average non-competitor.

 

[Steve]

I built a dark room 8' x 10' padded......You put 2 guys in it with headgear and eye protection and one has to get out (no punching). You have to rely on instinct and creativity with your arms, hands and body movement. This helps with your split second decision making and increases your ability to react without thinking because you can't see

Sounds like a competition to me. Your rule set is a little more restrictive than the early UFCs but less so than the current rules.

 

[Steve]

Just as a refresher, please take note of my OP:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/112643-Sport-And-TMA-Again?p=1610449#post1610449

Here is the question:

"So, what are your thoughts? Do people in the arts need preset techs. to use as a base, to defend against the things I mentioned above, or is just pure fighting skill, such as we'd see in the ring, good enough?"

Let's stick to the topic please.

The fighting skills stem from technique, MJS. I don't know that I quite understand what you're getting at. At some point, the golfer, tennis player, banjo player or whatever, will take the skills and apply them outside of the pre-arranged drills. Whether you're talking about the transition from the driving range to the links, or from scales and arpeggios to playing songs to riffing with an improvisational jazz band, at some point, in order to effectively transition past basic skills you have to apply the skills outside context of training.

I don't think sports are equivalent to self defense. I simply believe that, in a world in which most of us DON'T get into fights routinely, sports get us closer to combat than simulations and drills.

 

[Hanzou]

I wouldn't even call what I see in your common BJJ facility "fighting". It's really just submission grappling......Of course if you throw striking in their it becomes MMA but most BJJ practitioners I know hit softer than my wife.

We like to give love taps before we put you to sleep or snap your arm. That's just how we roll.

What the gracie's brought to MMA was an effective method of winning sport competitions and a false sense of security that because it works well in the octagon that the average martial artist should add this (BJJ) to his training regiment. That simply isn't the case.....

Only if you forget that the Gracies and others spent decades advancing and improving Bjj in street fights and various NHB competitions like Vale Tudo. Let's also not forget the various examples of Bjj protecting people in SD situations.

 

[SENC-33]

Sounds like a competition to me. Your rule set is a little more restrictive than the early UFCs but less so than the current rules.

Competition to me is applying pre-trained skills to defeat an opponent with a 3rd party declaring the victor. You don't get anything special for getting out of the room first other than knowledge.

 

[Hanzou]

Take that up with your fellow BJJer Hanz that's turned it into a BJJ is the king of the world all else sucks.

I would love to see posts from this thread where I stated or implied any such thing.

 

[SENC-33]

We like to give love taps before we put you to sleep or snap your arm. That's just how we roll.



Only if you forget that the Gracies and others spent decades advancing and improving Bjj in street fights and various NHB competitions like Vale Tudo. Let's also not forget the various examples of Bjj protecting people in SD situations.

By all means let me know when you snap your first arm.......If you want to love tap your training partner that's a personal problem!

 

[K-man]

K man, I was not talking about black belts with regards to taking 5-6years to learn to use the art. I was talking in general. About the only art were black belt means any thing is BJJ and that usually denotes mastery, and that is how the art is set up. I kinda thought it was common knowledge that black belt was only part way through the system in many tma.

Don't underplay the value of black belts. Sure some are handed out pretty easily and it sticks in my craw when a 22 year old kid is a fourth dan. But that said it takes an effort and dedication to get to black belt. BJJ is probably the longest at 10 years but it took me 7 years to get my Aikido black. I was 64 at the time. To say that the BJJ black is the only one that means anything is just not right.

I agree with your sentiment that much of what people cross train for may be found in your karate. Problem is, not many are teaching it very well. Out of all the dojo I visited, I saw nothing that told me they had advanced beyond basic understanding. SO sure what you or I may need is found in the system, but there is a sizeable amount of schools not teaching it in any quality way.

Some schools teach basics up to black belt then have advanced classes after that. Because it is not visible in a normal class doesn't mean it doesn't exist. But I will agree, often it doesn't.

I keep coming back to the striking defense. You would think a lineage of karate, say GOJO or Shorin, would have set ways of dealing with attacks throught the entirety of the system. Sadly you can take 4 different schools from the same Lineage and they will have 4 different applications of the same defense. The fact that karate cant even agree with it self on how to use the defenses is just odd.... Is each defense a combo or a rather long way to learn on movment? Its questions like this that go on debated and unanswered. About the only real answere is to do what your teacher says, but what if he is teaching you something diluted.

In fact I don't believe that you should have a set defence for each attack. I believe in teaching principles that apply to all attacks, then you don't have to remember which technique to use. Certainly learn the technique ... then forget it.

The thug mma will be truly frightening. He is stronger, faster and has incredible cardio.. Can your students meet that threat in a dark ally, or parking lot or bar room?

Hopefully yes. But then there are other SD mechanisms as an alternative to fighting.

Sorry, I meant to respond to this yesterday.

 

[Steve]

Competition to me is applying pre-trained skills to defeat an opponent with a 3rd party declaring the victor. You don't get anything special for getting out of the room first other than knowledge.

Whatever floats your boat. In my opinion, there is nothing more clearly competitive than, "two men enter; one man leaves."

An 8x10 room, with safety gear and rules sounds a lot like a competition to me. Don't get me wrong. I'm pro competition.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[SENC-33]

Whatever floats your boat. In my opinion, there is nothing more clearly competitive than, "two men enter; one man leaves."

An 8x10 room, with safety gear and rules sounds a lot like a competition to me. Don't get me wrong. I'm pro competition.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Well both people actually get to come out of the room. No different than if you and another dude go into the head at the same time and one comes out before the other.....Is that a competition too?

 

[Hanzou]

By all means let me know when you snap your first arm.......If you want to love tap your training partner that's a personal problem!

I already did. It was at a competition, and the idiot forgot to tap. I also dislocated another guy's shoulder because he didn't tap.

If you don't hear a tap, you're probably going to hear a snap.

 

[SENC-33]

I already did. It was at a competition, and the idiot forgot to tap. I also dislocated another guy's shoulder because he didn't tap.

If you don't hear a tap, you're probably going to hear a snap.

Sorry but I call complete BS.......

 

[lklawson]

That isn't to say they never taught it, it wasn't the focus of their training. This is why Bjj was able to carve a large niche for itself and flourish as a different martial art.

Here's Ronda Rousey talking about this exact thing;

Ronda Rousey:'Training in newaza in judo is not mandatory. You can get away with not knowing any ground and just knowing how to defend and stay standing.

Absolute hogwash. Newaza techniques are, and have been, a requirement for United States Judo Association kyu rank tests. Choking techniques (12 of 'em + variations), arm and shoulder locks (10 of 'em + variations), hold downs (20 of 'em); all requirements for various kyu ranks. Only thing held back is ankle and knee locks. And a crapload of entries into matwork, positions, and escapes. You can see how many of what are required per kyu rank here:
http://www.usja-judo.org/forms/Docs/srpromo.pdf

I have no idea why she would say that but it isn't the truth and never has been.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Steve]

Well both people actually get to come out of the room. No different than if you and another dude go into the head at the same time and one comes out before the other.....Is that a competition too?

You're seriously comparing your training to urinating? That's pretty funny. I hope you clean your mats.

But funny aside, your analogy doesn't really work, unless in your training, the two guys enter the room for some reason other than to fight each other and be the one to emerge first.

That both people actually get to leave the room is a given. It's competition. The rules you have in place are for safety. Right?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[Hanzou]

Sorry but I call complete BS.......

You seriously don't believe that people's limbs get broken in Bjj competitions?

It happens dude.

 

[SENC-33]

You're seriously comparing your training to urinating? That's pretty funny. I hope you clean your mats.

But funny aside, your analogy doesn't really work, unless in your training, the two guys enter the room for some reason other than to fight each other and be the one to emerge first.

That both people actually get to leave the room is a given. It's competition. The rules you have in place are for safety. Right?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Nothing we do in my training facility is considered a competition by those who walk through the doors and that's all that really matters unless you just want me to argue back and forth with you......done that already on the other thread.

 

[SENC-33]

You seriously don't believe that people's limbs get broken in Bjj competitions?

It happens dude.

Of course it happens.....I don't believe YOU to be one who has done it.

 

[lklawson]

In Judo, newaza is actually penalized

No, it isn't.

and landing on your back is an Ippon.

That's not penalizing newaza. That's like saying that Lancashire Catch Wrestling penalizes ground work for getting a solid back-throw. No. It just means that a certain, very specific, "method" of you hitting the ground costs you points.

Because of this, Judo puts less emphasis on ground fighting.

Look, I have some issues with some of the Judo competition rules, but your take on them is biased by your BJJ and is, frankly, not accurate.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk