Sport And TMA....Again

[Hanzou]

in the sports world they might not work as well. In the criminal world I know they work Ive seen them work. This summer where I work a college girl prevented her own rape with fingernails to the groin of the attacker, she had NO martial arts training she just had natural instinct to attack the groin.
When people keep using this Gracie challenge as proof they seem to forget they did loose I mean Sakuraba got the nickname "the gracie hunter" for beating four of them. Like I said before all the challenge proved was on that day that guy beat the other guy.

So you're of the opinion that what doesn't work in sport works well in the street, and works great in sport doesn't work well in the street? I'm just trying to clarify your viewpoint here.

Yes, we know the Gracies were defeated. The point was that people were actively using Bjj in situations where dirty tricks were employed, and Bjj did just fine.

You cant use comprehensive and then quantify it with only ground fighting. That in itself means its not a comprehensive system. And a woman in any art with spend most of her time going up against bigger men thats pretty standard for all Arts.

I'm pretty sure I said "In terms of ground fighting".

 

[ballen0351]

So you're of the opinion that what doesn't work in sport works well in the street, and works great in sport doesn't work well in the street? I'm just trying to clarify your viewpoint here.

No Im saying any trained fighter like someone that trains or someone enters comps is going to train to protect his vulnerable areas like the groin. I know we do in my Dojo. Making it harder to get to because of said training. However most folks dont have training, and in a real world setting the criminals are also more worried about outside factors like the cops or witnesses so its easier because they have other things to think about besides winning the match.

Yes, we know the Gracies were defeated. The point was that people were actively using Bjj in situations where dirty tricks were employed, and Bjj did just fine.

Are you saying "dirty tricks"(which dont exist in the real world nothing is a dirty trick) like biting and scratching cant work?

I'm pretty sure I said "In terms of ground fighting".

right which means BJJ is not comprehensive

 

[Hanzou]

Are you saying "dirty tricks"(which dont exist in the real world nothing is a dirty trick) like biting and scratching cant work?

Can they work? Sure. Would I depend on scratching, spitting or biting to stop an attack? No. They're low percentage attacks that are more likely to piss off your attacker more (and get you a blood-borne disease) instead of stopping them. Additionally, if I'm close enough to bite or scratch someone, I'd prefer to choke them, or dislocate one of their body parts.

right which means BJJ is not comprehensive

Um, Bjj is comprehensive in terms or ground fighting and in general.

 

[ballen0351]

Can they work? Sure. Would I depend on scratching, spitting or biting to stop an attack? No. They're low percentage attacks that are more likely to piss off your attacker more (and get you a blood-borne disease) instead of stopping them. Additionally, if I'm close enough to bite or scratch someone, I'd prefer to choke them, or dislocate one of their body parts.

Scratching and biting were defensive. You choking or dislocating things is offensive. Two different things. The groin shot was being used as an example of an escape not an attack. The girl I was talking about used it to fend off her attacker after he pulled her into an ally. At the risk of being raped blood borne pathogens are the least of her worries.

Um, Bjj is comprehensive in terms or ground fighting and in general.

Ok if you say so. I disagree

 

[RTKDCMB]

Why RTKDCMB? A nice cross section of martial arts, including TKD was shown and they got defeated.

Because it is like using Wikipedia for research. Any idiot can post a video, it may be a nice cross section but its not an accurate one. As I have said before, judging an art based on a few scattered videos is like judging a movie based only on the previews.

IF there are so many Great TMA out there, why are they not being represented?

I keep hearing about all these fantastic TMA that wouldn't fall prey, yet they never appear.

Several reasons;

1) Some arts are only for self defence, challenging someone to a fight or accepting a challenge is not self defence.
2) Not everybody feels they need to "prove" anything and many of those that do only prove they are d!#ks.
3) Not everyone wants to hurt people for no good reason.
4) Not all arts want to display that side of their art.
5) Not everyone has access to a Gracie.
6) Not everyone feels the need to video everything.
7) Etc.

Why haven't they accepted the challenge and proven them selves and there art legit?

Ask yourself this. Why do the Gracies not test their art by attacking someone on the street? That's the only true test of a martial artist's fighting skills.

Have you accepted the challenge and proven yourself and your art legit?

Self defence arts are proven legit when their students are attacked in the street and they defend themselves effectively, not from accepting a challenge match by someone who thinks they need to prove themselves. That has been done on many occasions, usually off camera.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Um, Bjj is comprehensive in terms or ground fighting and in general.

I would like to know what your definition of "general" is.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I have tapped out all my knowledge trying to convince people that having some basic skills on the ground that regularly practice is nothing but helpful.

No one is actually suggesting that it isn't helpful, it is just not absolutely necessary for it to be the largest part of every art.

I just pray to god no one here has to find out the hard way how hard it is to escape from bottom with punch's raining in.

MMA prides it self on ground and pound yet I have seen many fighter who are getting punched from the top and end up just frantically waving their arms around like they don't know what to do, so its not just TMA's who may have that problem. Most arts have methods of getting up in that situation, despite what some may think most arts do not have any allusions as to how hard it is.

 

[K-man]

That's my definition as well. We totally agree on this 100%.

I'll only attack when I have

- 1 control over my opponent while my opponent has no control over me.
- 2 controls over my opponent while my opponent only has 1 control over me.

I'll never attack my opponent when he has 2 controls over me. When that happen, I'll give up my controls and tear apart my opponent's controls. Since the window can be very small, the attack has to happen soon without waiting.

Here is an example that you try to control your opponent but don't allow your opponent to control you in "jacket wrestling environment".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L52xVMl_ZQM&feature=youtu.be

This "arm wrapping" in no-jacket environment also fit into that definition.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYuu84PJK80&feature=youtu.be

You quoting Bas to me? How can you be anything but a friend? In fact I learnt a couple of new techniques from Bas when he was here earlier this year, including an escape from the mount.
:asian:

 

[SENC-33]

I posted this in the other thread as well......

All my years working doors, bouncing, event security (over a decade and hundreds of altercations) I have NEVER seen the first arm bar, ankle lock or even a choke out when fights went to the ground. The fact is there is a different level of adrenaline when the fight is real, there is little time to actually pull off these controlling techniques and there is no such thing as a "love tap". If you are alone and you are attacked maybe I could see the point of ground fighting but that is rarely the case in society. Bad things happen on the ground period......Training to strike on the ground, escape and get up and stay up (the smart thing to do) doesn't require years of BJJ devotion and can be properly covered within the confines of any TMA. If BJJ is your passion and you fully believe in it as an effective means of street protection then I say go for it. It's your life and well being at stake not mine. I have myself and my own family to keep safe.

I am far more concerned with knives, multiple attackers and a blind sided sucker punch than I am a ground fighter

 

[K-man]

Alright. Im respectfully bowing out of this one. I have tapped out all my knowledge trying to convince people that having some basic skills on the ground that regularly practice is nothing but helpful. Im done being talked to like a dang fool. I just pray to god no one here has to find out the hard way how hard it is to escape from bottom with punch's raining in.

IMHO being comfortable on the ground benefits the standup part of your skillset. It gives you the courage to close the gap and actually try some techs that you may be hesitant to try. Knowing that if get taken down, you have defineable skills you can use to get back up.

So. Im done with this. I don't want to keep arguing with people I respect and like and consider online friends.

Having basic skills on the ground is not only helpful, it is essential. All I have been saying is I don't have to learn BJJ to achieve those basic skills.

As to being comfortable on the ground, that is a big part of Systema training.
:asian:

 

[SENC-33]

Having basic skills on the ground is not only helpful, it is essential. All I have been saying is I don't have to learn BJJ to achieve those basic skills.

As to being comfortable on the ground, that is a big part of Systema training.
:asian:

+1 on the Systema ground training.

 

[Hanzou]

I would like to know what your definition of "general" is.

Grappling and throws while standing, grappling while on the ground, and striking while standing and while on the ground.

 

[Hanzou]

+1 on the Systema ground training.

Wait, this stuff?

http://youtu.be/UU8Aex-7HV0
http://youtu.be/uRj1DgiitN8

Some of that is....strange.

 

[ballen0351]

Grappling and throws while standing, grappling while on the ground, and striking while standing and while on the ground.

So basically everything Okinawan Styles have been doing for a long time

 

[RTKDCMB]

Grappling and throws while standing, grappling while on the ground, and striking while standing and while on the ground.

I have seen a large number of BJJ fights on videos but I have never seen any evidence of striking that I would consider to be comprehensive.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Wait, this stuff?

http://youtu.be/UU8Aex-7HV0
http://youtu.be/uRj1DgiitN8

Some of that is....strange.

The first one seems to be just practice at grabbing and breaking someones fingers. Only a little strange.
The second one is just practicing slowly how to defend against getting kicked on the ground. Not strange at all.

 

[SENC-33]

I tend to stay away from posting Systema videos for the most part. Many are good, many are bad as it is a very difficult concept to grasp outside of actual training or attending a seminar hosted by reputable instructors. The ground training is even harder to convey than the stand up.

 

[lklawson]

Getting stood up after 5 seconds isn't penalizing newaza?

5 seconds of NOT DOING ANYTHING. Progress and the match continues.

You win the match if your opponent gets thrown on their back. The back is a highly defensive position in newaza, and not being able to land on your back into a defensive position on the ground does penalize newaza.

Being thrown flat on your back is not the same thing as being on your back. If a non-ipon throw occurs and, in the process of grappling, one person gets to his back, the match is not won or lost.

 

[K-man]

All of which were legal in UFC 1-6 and none of which worked.. Case in point. The HKD guy in the challenge videos, he kept trying to sack grab, and guess what, didn't work.. Plenty of hair pulling, fish hooking and other crap on the list in UFC 1-6 NONE OF THEM WORKED.

OK. We must be watching different versions of the UFC. I just watched the first half hour or so. In that time Royce Gracie was the only one to win by an arm lock submission after belting the crap out of Kimo while pulling his hair. A lot of these fights were finished by point of the elbow strikes, two by kicks to the head while the opponent was on the floor, another by a forearm strike to the back of the head, one by a choke that was more a neck crank, another the point of the elbow to the back of the neck.

But out the classic, Jo Sun vs Hackney, where first of all Hackney belts him in the nuts then grabs his trachea and chokes him out.

What is interesting is that almost all the techniques used to finish these fights are now banned.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tCzdbyJnN_w

As I said, the stuff we practise regularly in TMA seems to work just fine when there are virtually no rules.

 

[SENC-33]

OK. We must be watching different versions of the UFC. I just watched the first half hour or so. In that time Royce Gracie was the only one to win by an arm lock submission after belting the crap out of Kimo while pulling his hair. A lot of these fights were finished by point of the elbow strikes, two by kicks to the head while the opponent was on the floor, another by a forearm strike to the back of the head, one by a choke that was more a neck crank, another the point of the elbow to the back of the neck.

But out the classic, Jo Sun vs Hackney, where first of all Hackney belts him in the nuts then grabs his trachea and chokes him out.

What is interesting is that almost all the techniques used to finish these fights are now banned.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tCzdbyJnN_w

As I said, the stuff we practise regularly in TMA seems to work just fine when there are virtually no rules.

If you can manage to create just enough space to strike on the ground (and you know how and where to strike) you wont be on the ground for long. If your opponent manages to get on top of you he had best not make a mistake or fall victim to assumptions that he can't be severely injured within a fraction of a second. Real life ground fighting brings forth a different adrenaline rush......Most TM artist aren't going to panic in these situations