Sport And TMA....Again

[MJS]

This "flavor of the week" has lasted for over 20 years.

you're right...probably because nothing new has come along. And frankly, with everything already out there, IMHO, we really don't need anything new. Anyone claiming to be inventing their own style is probably full of it.

Seriously though, think about it. In the 70s it was Karate. 80s we saw everyone running around in black uniforms with their face covered, because Ninjutsu was the big thing. We saw it with Krav Maga. Hell the KMWW group was one of the biggest pushers. Last but not least, the Gracies/BJJ/UFC.

 

[SENC-33]

These style arguments are exactly why I enjoy raw combatives. I can take the best from my nerve striking days, my Muay Thai days and throw in the most effective things I have learned from training with Silat and Kali guys and wrap it up into Systema.....I have grown very fond of Tai-Chi the last few years and as I have grown older and wiser it all makes sense now.

 

[MJS]

I can't believe that I got sucked down this spiraling rabbit hole discussion again.

Unfortunately, this thread is turning into the same as the other 2. It is however, not the direction I intended.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I agree. Interestingly enough, I was shocked at the number of people that I used to teach, that seemed to crumble under pressure, when the 'preset' tech that they were doing, suddenly didn't work, because the attacker did something else, or they couldn't reach the specific target because of height differences, etc. My reply was fairly simple...who cares if you can't reach the face. Are there no other targets available? See, the problem was, was that others would make the students feel so bound by the technique at hand, that they had to do it verbatim, no matter what. I call BS on that. Oh, so you're 5'6 and your attacker is 6'2. Oh, you can't reach his face? Hmm...can you change the face shot to a strike to the chest instead? Can you kick the guy in the balls to make him bend over? Oh you can, good, then do it! That is why I'd preach the use of the basics so much. Adapt on the fly.

That's pretty much how it is taught in my school, if you can't reach here strike there instead, if someone grabs you like this, do this, if he is too big and strong, do that instead, if you are too close for a knifehand strike, use an elbow etc.

 

[SENC-33]

I agree. Interestingly enough, I was shocked at the number of people that I used to teach, that seemed to crumble under pressure, when the 'preset' tech that they were doing, suddenly didn't work, because the attacker did something else, or they couldn't reach the specific target because of height differences, etc. My reply was fairly simple...who cares if you can't reach the face. Are there no other targets available? See, the problem was, was that others would make the students feel so bound by the technique at hand, that they had to do it verbatim, no matter what. I call BS on that. Oh, so you're 5'6 and your attacker is 6'2. Oh, you can't reach his face? Hmm...can you change the face shot to a strike to the chest instead? Can you kick the guy in the balls to make him bend over? Oh you can, good, then do it! That is why I'd preach the use of the basics so much. Adapt on the fly.

Agree.....I think the most important thing you can teach anybody is how to handle pressure and stress quickly and accordingly and how to control adrenaline so it works for you not against you. Training to relax and breath is just as important if not the most important thing you can do IMO. You can be a highly trained practitioner of anything but if you can't relax, think clearly and control emotion, panic will take over and that is the last thing you want to deal with.

 

[SENC-33]

That's pretty much how it is taught in my school, if you can't reach here strike there instead, if someone grabs you like this, do this, if he is too big and strong, do that instead, if you are too close for a knifehand strike, use an elbow etc.

Absolutely!!!!!!

 

[MJS]

So if I said that BJJ couldn't "punch its way out of wet paper bag" that wouldn't be putting it down? That in reality is what you are saying about all of the other martial arts. "If it ain't BJJ than it ain't C$#%. You are sticking to a nonsensical argument. Even when the facts that you have quote have been refuted multiple times you still ignore them. And continue in your own zealous way to spout garbage.

This isn't a discussion anymore (not sure that it ever was) it is merely your zealous crusade to ignore evidence and push your own agenda even when you contradict yourself. You keep saying it is all about the style and not individual instructors. Yet the only people that you credit with anything are the Gracies.

You can't see what other people are saying because either 1) you don't want to (and prefer the bubble that in which BJJ is completely omnipotent, or 2) are unable to accept than anyone may know things that you don't. Either way it really doesn't (or shouldn't) matter to the rest of us. It really isn't our job to correct your misunderstandings. Several very respected members here have already attempted to to so politely and been ignored or nastily rebuffed (and still not have a solid, undeniable argument).

I for one am done with this pointless (and circular logic) argument that you keep using. I will continue to train hard in my chosen TMA as I am sure that you will keep training in yours.

Enjoy the journey but, stop telling everyone else that they don't anything about their own.

HA! Funny you say that, because UFC 60 Hughes vs. Gracie, we saw Royce pretty much get dominated by punches thrown by Matt. This proves to me, that while in the beginning, BJJ may've been the superior art, we saw it easily defeated by a striker.

In the end, it's like I always say...all arts can benefit from each other.

 

[MJS]

Please post the quote where I stated or implied that other MAs ain't "_____".

More to the point, if I said the Bjj doesn't teach you to kick as well as a TKD exponent, or punch as well as a Boxer, I would have no problem with that statement. I'm curious as to why some of you are having such a problem with me stating that Bjj and the Gracies brought ground fighting, a largely ignored aspect of fighting up to that time, to the forefront of martial arts after the first UFC in 1993.



Given the context of this discussion (competition changing martial arts), I think crediting the Gracies is a perfectly fair thing to do, because they definitely changed the MA landscape.

Yes, we know they did. However, it should be very obvious, in this thread, as well as the other 2, that you're extremely pro BJJ. In a number of posts, you've disregarded TMAs. I'm sure I, as well as others, can show you those posts.

 

[SENC-33]

What the gracie's brought to MMA was an effective method of winning sport competitions and a false sense of security that because it works well in the octagon that the average martial artist should add this (BJJ) to his training regiment. That simply isn't the case.....

 

[MJS]

Ground fighting doesnt need to be both people on the ground rolling around. If Im standing up but keeping you on the ground with a standing arm bar or wrist lock is that ground fighting? To me it is. Its controlling a person on the ground Im just not there with him. Mounting someone and bashing their skull in with hammer fists, or putting someone in a triangle or Arm bar is not the only way to fight the ground.

You're correct. Even in Arnis, which is not a ground based art, there are things there, just as you described. I guess I was just referring to something in the event that one finds themselves on the ground.

 

[jks9199]

Unfortunately, this thread is turning into the same as the other 2. It is however, not the direction I intended.

Let's try to get back on track...

Is there a place for competition in traditional martial arts training? I certainly think there can be! Competition is one form of pressure; it's a chance to see how your stuff works against someone different -- with a bit of competitive drive to win mixed in. You may have to adapt your techniques to the rules -- but you should be able to maintain the principles consistently, even if you can't do everything. There are limits, of course. A BJJ stylist would have a heck of a time adapting his art to a boxing ruleset -- and would probably be beyond lost in a fencing match! But if your style says "evade the attack, and counter" -- well, you should be able to take the kicks out of it, and do that in a boxing match.

 

[MJS]

What the gracie's brought to MMA was an effective method of winning sport competitions and a false sense of security that because it works well in the octagon that the average martial artist should add this (BJJ) to his training regiment. That simply isn't the case.....

You're probably correct in this, however, that certainly isn't the way things turned out.

 

[SENC-33]

I wouldn't even call what I see in your common BJJ facility "fighting". It's really just submission grappling......Of course if you throw striking in their it becomes MMA but most BJJ practitioners I know hit softer than my wife.

 

[Steve]

How did Bjj become the center of a discussion about sport and tma? While Bjj certainly has a well defined and robust competitive element, it isn't the only art to have one. Judo, kyokushin karate, TKD, Muay Thai, sambo, mma, boxing, fencing, wrestling, Chinese wrestling (won't even try to spell it with autocorrect on), San shou, and the list goes on and on.

The discussion at hand is, I believe, whether or not sport and a competitive element is beneficial or not. I believe that a competitive element can make most arts stronger, not weaker, provided the competition remains in context, and the practitioners remain self aware.

I would love to hear more comments, but the style bashing is petty and unconstructive, whether it's bashing on traditional arts or bashing on Bjj.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[ballen0351]

How did Bjj become the center of a discussion about sport and tma?

Take that up with your fellow BJJer Hanz that's turned it into a BJJ is the king of the world all else sucks.

While Bjj certainly has a well defined and robust competitive element, it isn't the conteve one. Judo, kyokushin karate, TKD, Muay Thai, sambo, mma, boxing, fencing, wrestling, Chinese wrestling (won't even tryto spell it with autocorrect on), San shou, and the list goes on and on.

True. All have there benefits and draw backs. Comps are not my thing mainly because they are against rules for my job and also because i have a real job and can't risk injuries. But its cool to watch and takes guts to do it.

The discussion at hand is, I believe, whether or not sport and a competitive element is beneficial or not. I believe that a competitive element can make most arts stronger, not weaker, provided the competition remains in context, and the practitioners remain self aware.

Keeping it in context is the key. Comps all have rules. In my opinion rules for arts like JUDO have hurt the sport. I understand what they are trying to do with all the rule changes but I think its hurting Judo as a whole.

I would love to hear more comments, but the style bashing is petty and unconstructive, whether it's bashing on traditional arts or bashing on Bjj.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

I agree every art has its strong point and weak point. The trick is to see what they are ans adjust accordingly

 

[SENC-33]

A sport element CAN be helpful (it certainly can't hurt) but I find I get more out of scenario based training when it comes to self defense. The trick is knowing how to go about it correctly and safely and that obviously comes down to having experienced individuals leading the way. Knowing how to move, how to utilize focus mitts and other pads and shields. I wasn't keen on the slow speed of Systema until I was instructed on how to approach it properly.

 

[Grenadier]

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please keep this discussion civil, and on-topic. While you allowed to criticize an art, all-out art bashing is not allowed.

-Ronald Shin
-MT Assistant Administrator

 

[Hanzou]

Strongly disagree on this. If "pull guard" can achieve the same ground game result, why would anybody want to train "leg lift throw (Uchi Mata)"? You can learn "pull guard" in 1 month. How long does it take you to learn "leg lift throw (Uchi Mata)"? Not only you need to have good single leg balance, you also need to have leg flexibility.

http://imageshack.us/a/img832/7585/changleglifting.jpg

http://judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/uchimata.htm

Well you're talking about something completely different. Pulling Guard is easy to do and effective, so a lot of competitive Bjj practitioners use it. That doesn't really hurt throwing, it just means that for Bjj competition you're more likely to see Guard pulls than any other takedown.

In Judo, newaza is actually penalized, and landing on your back is an Ippon. Because of this, Judo puts less emphasis on ground fighting.

 

[MJS]

Just as a refresher, please take note of my OP:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/112643-Sport-And-TMA-Again?p=1610449#post1610449

Here is the question:

"So, what are your thoughts? Do people in the arts need preset techs. to use as a base, to defend against the things I mentioned above, or is just pure fighting skill, such as we'd see in the ring, good enough?"

Let's stick to the topic please.

 

[ballen0351]

Just as a refresher, please take note of my OP:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/112643-Sport-And-TMA-Again?p=1610449#post1610449

Here is the question:

"So, what are your thoughts? Do people in the arts need preset techs. to use as a base, to defend against the things I mentioned above, or is just pure fighting skill, such as we'd see in the ring, good enough?"

Let's stick to the topic please.

You need both. Beginners need preset techs and then a teacher to help them think outside the box. When I teach a standard Bunkai I then make the students change it into their own to see what else is out there you can see a huge difference between the creativity of a newer person and someone that's been at it a while.