Sport And TMA....Again

[Steve]

It is quite a bit different when the chance that you or your family could actually die than when the worst outcome is injury or loss. To actually try and equate the two is not only a logical fallacy, it is an inductive generalization.

The only way to know if your style or approach works in an "actual" life threatening street encounter is to actually use it in a real life threatening encounter. Go into a combat situation where someone is trying their hardest to actually kill you. Only then will you ever know.

The UFC and MMA in general are interesting, just like the NFL is interesting......as a game. Nothing more. Of course, that's my opinion.....YMMV.

Respectfully,

Mike

Most people will never use their art in an actual life or death situation.

Sport allows one to raise the stakes without risking their lives.

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[K-man]

Um, you needed good grappling skills in the early UFCs as well. Again, Gracie was subbing people in a matter of seconds in those early bouts.

I'm not sure about 'seconds' but most of the bouts were over quickly.

Also I don't know if you watch a lot of UFC, but elbows still end a lot of fights. See a highlight film of the current UFC champ Jon Jones. The guy does nothing but elbows.

If you look at the video I posted they are using the point of the elbow. It is one of the strongest points of the body and why is has a special place in TMA.

The evidence doesn't support that. Plenty of strikers in modern UFC win, but they do so because they know what to do if they get taken to the ground. Before the majority of fighters learned Gjj, it was dominated by Gjj. After the Gracies left the UFC, wrestlers dominated it. Strikers started winning UFC championships when they supplemented their striking skills with grappling.

You obviously didn't watch the video I posted!

That isn't what I asked you. You stated that RSBD guys are unfairly restricted by MMA rules. I want to know how exactly that is the case when numerous other MAs adapt to MMA rules just fine.

The new rules from the MMA ban the use of many of the most effective techniques we train. Other martial arts may well adopt their training so that they can take part in the competition. How many times do I have to state that many people don't want to do that.

You have this fixation that everyone one wants to play in your sandpit. Sorry, that just isn't reality.

The fight may have lasted more than 4 minutes?

And Royce may have lost.

I'm still waiting for you to comment on the two bouts I asked you to watch!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Oh of course, im not anti striking arts at all! But there is overwhelming proof that if you don't know how to grapple and you come across a guy with a grappling martial background, then you are in big trouble...... There is not overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

I have not yet met any "anti striking" guys (I'm sure there may have some over the Judo forum), but I have met a lot of "anti grappling" guys in person. Why? Should we say that grapplers may have more open mind than the strikers?

 

[K-man]

That is a misconception. "Mufflers" or "Mittens" were not "compulsory" by any stretch. They were merely a requirement under one specific rule set published by the Marquis of Queensberry, which was, initially, targeted at amateur boxers. There were other competing rule sets outside of the good Marquis' rules and the London Prize Ring rules were still the norm for professional matches for many decades past the Marquis' first rendition. Pro-boxer Billy Edwards in his 1888 boxing manual The Art of Boxing and Manual of Training, makes a clear distinction between amateur matches, which use gloves, and professional matches, which will be bare knuckle. He further suggests that if a student of boxing is interested in street self defense then he should make a study of the London Prize Ring rules bare-knuckle boxing (which at the time included trips, throws, and grapples).

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

True. What I should have said was that it was from that time that gloves became more the norm and bare knuckle fighting really began its decline.
: asian:

 

[SENC-33]

Aren't blows to the temple and throat legal in the UFC? If I get a minute, I'll look up the actual rules. I'm pretty sure there is no prohibition on them, though.


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I'm sure a blow to the temple isn't illegal not sure about throat. I was simply providing the other poster with examples of areas that "could" potentially kill somebody if struck hard enough. You have to be mindful of a strike to the throat in any instance

 

[SENC-33]

Throat strikes are very hard to pull off. The throat is a very small target, and its difficult to hit. This is especially true if someone is tagging you in the face. Conversely if you're on top of someone and is dropping elbows on your face, and then happen to drop an elbow on your throat, it could very likely kill you. The downward momentum, and your head on the canvas or ground can easily cause lethal damage, and that's why it's probably banned.

However, I'm curious; Do you feel that a lot of MAs can't compete because they don't allow throat strikes, biting, hair pulls and groin taps in competition?

The throat is one of the easiest targets to hit when at close range......I don't quite understand your comment about MA's not competing. The large majority of guys who compete in the UFC have multiple backgrounds in several martial arts.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Without getting involved in the debate...

UFC Rules

Section 15 defines fouls and includes:

Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea

 

[K-man]

well to me there is nothing more "credible" than facing off and proving it. I'm not even sure what you mean by 100's of arts and 1000's of Martial artists who didn't step up.

The point is the ones that did step up didn't produce. I mean these are fighting arts we are talking about right?

this was the decade for martial artists to prove there style. One rose to the top........and thus changed gave birth to another that has changed the face of martial arts for ever.

No! It has changed the face of 'Sport' martial arts and it is a little presumptive to say 'for ever'.

 

[TFP]

Fair enough.

It's the Internet so you never know who might actually drop in.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

True, I used to frequent a forum that Jason Delucia would always post on. Now there is a guy who put his art to the test!

 

[SENC-33]

I've known more than a few BJJ guys who have had "real, in the street" fights. One of my friends in Australia, famous for being one of the guys to answer the Yellow Bamboo challenge, has on two separate occasions, been assaulted "on the street." One instance this is a literal statement. Exited cars. He choked the attacker out and threw his car keys into the bushes.

If your criteria is "works in an 'actual' life threatening street encounter" then BJJ has already delivered. End of story.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Pepper spray and GUN fu work in the street too but that isn't the point. BJJ will work in the street I'm sure but does it's effectiveness hold up under most circumstances? You can get hurt badly by multiple attackers standing OR on the ground but you stand a better chance against 2, 3 or maybe more if your first inclination is to stay on your feet to begin with. In a one on one situation I could see a person choking somebody out then getting up and leaving but joint locks and arm bars in the street are a mythical joke unless you actually break the arm, elbow or what have you (most don't have the stomach) to do that. If somebody got me in an arm bar, I yell uncle and they let me go I would politely kick the person in the face.

 

[TFP]

I'm still waiting for you to comment on the two bouts I asked you to watch!

What post #? I would like to watch the videos if you don't mind.

 

[K-man]

Speaking if "proof", no disrespect but you I fact do NOT "know" anyone who could "kill someone instantly", especially if they never, ever, ever have. Honestly man, especially if they have never been in one single fight. I just don't get that kind of blind faith or belief in something so silly.

When I was a lot younger I knew guys who were Commandos in WWII, later Special Forces Guys from Vietnam and the Middle East. They did a bit of that sort of stuff. From memory I can't recall any of them talking about 'submitting' their enemies.

 

[TFP]

No! It has changed the face of 'Sport' martial arts and it is a little presumptive to say 'for ever'.

Ha, ok maybe not forever........ What is this "sport martial arts" you speak of? Did the Gracie's not fight on the streets and beaches of Brazil and in any and all dojo's they could before bringing the challenge to PPV?

there were literally NO RULES in the early UFC's. "Sport" my ***!!!!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

"Sport" my ***!!!!

Agree with you 100% on this. In just 3 words, you have said everything that I have tried to say all these years. When "your fist meets your opponent's face", the word combat, self-defense, or sport will have no difference at all.

There is no difference between "help someone to go to heaven" and "killing".

 

[TFP]

When I was a lot younger I knew guys who were Commandos in WWII, later Special Forces Guys from Vietnam and the Middle East. They did a bit of that sort of stuff. From memory I can't recall any of them talking about 'submitting' their enemies.

Yeah the first guy I learned how to fight from was a Vietnam Vet who was a "smoker" for a bar on the West Coast before joining..... And no, there are absolutely no magic "death" punches, sorry.

lol, didn't tap anyone out during a war huh!? We'll that settles it then....... Jeez you people are silly. You don't think anyone in those wars took prisoners using hand to hand combat ?

 

[K-man]

I have not yet met any "anti striking" guys (I'm sure there may have some over the Judo forum), but I have met a lot of "anti grappling" guys in person. Why? Should we say that grapplers may have more open mind than the strikers?

Why would there be any 'anti grappling' guys at all. I certainly have never come across anyone of that view.

 

[SENC-33]

Yeah the first guy I learned how to fight from was a Vietnam Vet who was a "smoker" for a bar on the West Coast before joining..... And no, there are absolutely no magic "death" punches, sorry.

lol, didn't tap anyone out during a war huh!? We'll that settles it then....... Jeez you people are silly. You don't think anyone in those wars took prisoners using hand to hand combat ?

Nothing magical about an extreme strike to the throat. It CAN kill you period.....

 

[Hanzou]

The throat is one of the easiest targets to hit when at close range......I don't quite understand your comment about MA's not competing. The large majority of guys who compete in the UFC have multiple backgrounds in several martial arts.

Well yes, but I'd like to see individuals from more diverse disciplines enter the MMA arena. For example, one of those 15th dan Ninjutsu exponents from the Bujinkan, or an Aikido stylist. Someone from those arts doing well in the UFC would go a long towards legitimizing their art among a lot of people.

 

[K-man]

I'm sure a blow to the temple isn't illegal not sure about throat. I was simply providing the other poster with examples of areas that "could" potentially kill somebody if struck hard enough. You have to be mindful of a strike to the throat in any instance

Rules for the neck area;

Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea
Strikes to the spine or back of the head

Temple area is ok.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Why would there be any 'anti grappling' guys at all. I certainly have never come across anyone of that view.

I have many striker friends. They don't mind to spar with me. When I asked them to wrestle with me, or include throwing in sparring by using Sanda/Sanshou rules, they all shied away. I believe that they might not like their body to hit to the ground. May be they don't have confidence in their "break fall". I assume if you can catch your opponent's kicking leg and sweep/hook his standing leg, the fall can be very uncomfortable.

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