Sport And TMA....Again

[K-man]

Hmm, that seems like 100% common sense to me. Testing your art is a way of knowing better if it truly works than say, not testing it.

OK! The main offensive technique I train and teach would be the elbow strike. That is the point of the elbow. The targets are normally the ribs under the arm, the side of the head and the spinal cord. Please tell me where I can test the effectiveness of that strike in competition. Probably the second most important strike I teach is the forearm strike to the back of the neck or side of the neck and jaw. We now start coming into the more legal techniques such as knees, knife hand and hammer fist. Punching is not a great part of what we do but in competition I would have to rely on it. I can believe those first techniques are effective, I don't have to test them on people. I can test them against pads or bags.

So you talk of testing your art. I would be only testing part of my art and I don't feel the need to do that.
:asian:

 

[K-man]

Even "sport guys" train "dirty tricks" too. It's used to deal with unfriendly challengers.

In the following clip, a teacher tried to teach his student how to hurt his opponent's wrist in a pure "sport" environment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtctDUks-W4&feature=youtu.be

In the following clip, a teacher tried to teach his student how to smash his elbow on his opponent's face when striking is not allowed in a pure "sport wrestling" environment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiPXWQfnfjE&feature=youtu.be

Sorry? What are you trying to show here? The first video shows a valid technique and the second one no one could see or understand unless it is being explained in the Chinese.

However, I'm not talking about 'dirty tricks'. In my training we don't use any dirty tricks. If you need to put fingers in the eyes to escape a choke, that is what you train, carefully. It is a valid technique, not a trick.
:asian:

 

[K-man]

When I had my commercial school, I had people walked into my school and challenged me with boxing rules or kickboxing rules. Before they challenged me, they even stated clearly that no throwing were allowed (there were no MMA back then so the term "grappling" was not used). It was funny that the challenger set up his challenge rules.

And of course, you obliged them?

 

[Hanzou]

Why do you need to go 100%? There are plenty of "UFC Evidence". Since that's all you guys seem to think is valid that a punch to the liver will drop you. I don't need to test it my self to know it works. I carry a gun with me at all times I don't need to shoot someone to know it works.

You need to go 100% to see if what your doing actually works. I see a lot of crazy stuff in Bjj, and if I didn't see people pull off that crazy stuff in MMA and in competition, I wouldn't believe it works either. I believe it because I know that in MMA and tournaments, people are going all out to win.

 

[K-man]

I'm sorry K-man, but that video was actually worse than the videos I posted.

If you buy that as legit, more power to you. I simply don't see how you can consider that training when people aren't even making contact with each other to see if they have the necessary power and leverage to make that technique work.

As I said, you don't have the first idea of what you are talking about and you can't understand even when it is explained to you.

How would you even be able to train those techniques at 100% or even 75% power without hurting your partner?

Exactly, you can't. Which is why we do it slowly.

You would have to actually hit your partner as hard as you can to generate the necessary force to knock a standing target flat on their back while you're on your knees.

Not true at all but I'm certainly not going to waste my time trying to get you to understand.

Let's just say the principles are similar to BJJ. Depending on your level of understanding of course.

 

[K-man]

I have many striker friends. They don't mind to spar with me. When I asked them to wrestle with me, or include throwing in sparring by using Sanda/Sanshou rules, they all shied away. I believe that they might not like their body to hit to the ground. May be they don't have confidence in their "break fall". I assume if you can catch your opponent's kicking leg and sweep/hook his standing leg, the fall can be very uncomfortable.

http://imageshack.com/a/img15/2355/innerblock.jpg

I can understand where they are coming from if they are from boxing and you have asked them to spar and then grapple according to rules. I wouldn't be too keen on that either as I wouldn't have the first clue as to what 'Sanda/Sanshou rules' are. If we were lightly sparring and you said "ok, let's add some grappling into this", I wouldn't have a problem. I would be trusting you to demonstrate your art in a way that was appropriate to my level of understanding, not just choke me out.
:asian:

 

[Hanzou]

Exactly, you can't. Which is why we do it slowly.

Are there any vids where you aren't doing it slowly?

Not true at all but I'm certainly not going to waste my time trying to get you to understand.

So you're saying that you can knock someone flat on their back at half their power from your knees with a slap or a punch? Okay.

Let's just say the principles are similar to BJJ. Depending on your level of understanding of course.

That may be Systema's goals, but its coming up quite bit short in that video. Interestingly, the most effective looking Systema ground fighting that I've seen was the stuff that was clearly lifted straight from Bjj.

 

[K-man]

Are there any vids where you aren't doing it slowly?

What are you saying? First you say "how would you even be able to train those techniques at 100% or even 75% power without hurting your partner?", then you ask for a video of someone doing that. How logical is that?

So you're saying that you can knock someone flat on their back at half their power from your knees with a slap or a punch? Okay.

No, I'm saying that. There are points on the body you can use to move your opponent. It is a basic concept in RBSD and you train it in karate and aikido also. At your level of understanding you probably haven't come across that principle, although I am sure it would be in BJJ.

That may be Systema's goals, but its coming up quite bit short in that video.

Of course it is. I wouldn't expect you to see it any other way.

Interestingly, the most effective looking Systema ground fighting that I've seen was the stuff that was clearly lifted straight from Bjj.

It is more than possible some of the Systema moves come from BJJ although I suspect you may be taking a little too much credit. Systema is a recent martial art built around traditional Russian boxing but modified to include the best of the rest. Things like Muay Thai, Aikido and Karate figure far more than BJJ but certainly the escapes from the ground include BJJ techniques.

 

[ballen0351]

You need to go 100% to see if what your doing actually works. I see a lot of crazy stuff in Bjj, and if I didn't see people pull off that crazy stuff in MMA and in competition, I wouldn't believe it works either. I believe it because I know that in MMA and tournaments, people are going all out to win.

I need to go 100% to see if my fist against his head works? Its been proven effective for 10000 years I'm not sure what's left to prove? Look bjj is the new kid on the block they had to prove it worked because it was new and unknown. People have been striking since the dawn of man. Not much left to prove.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Where do you live? I've never seen that happen to anyone I know around here. Closest I've ever seen was a mutual fight between two guys that ran dojo's in same town. Thatbwasnt a challenge they just hates each other and got into a fight.

Austin, Texas. That was in the 70th. I even had a guy who knocked on my front door and challenged me in my living room of my own house.

 

[ballen0351]

Austin, Texas. That was in the 70th. I even had a guy who knocked on my front door and challenged me in my living room of my own house.

That's nuts he would of been looking down the barrel of a gun and told to get off my property.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Sorry? What are you trying to show here? The first video shows a valid technique and the second one no one could see or understand unless it is being explained in the Chinese.

However, I'm not talking about 'dirty tricks'. In my training we don't use any dirty tricks. If you need to put fingers in the eyes to escape a choke, that is what you train, carefully. It is a valid technique, not a trick.
:asian:

What you may call "self-defense", to a "sport" guy, he may call it "black hands (dirty trick)". I just used those 2 clips to show that "sport" guys also train for street situation as well.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That's nuts he would of been looking down the barrel of a gun and told to get off my property.

Yes! In Texas, you are allow to shot someone when he is "inside of your house". Not sure that also apply to "inside of your MA school".

 

[ballen0351]

Yes! In Texas, you are allow to shot someone when he is "inside of your house". Not sure that also apply to "inside of your MA school".

Yeah I ment at my door. The guy at my school would be invited to train with us. If he insisted on fighting he would be told to leave and cops would be called

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I can understand where they are coming from if they are from boxing and you have asked them to spar and then grapple according to rules. I wouldn't be too keen on that either as I wouldn't have the first clue as to what 'Sanda/Sanshou rules' are. If we were lightly sparring and you said "ok, let's add some grappling into this", I wouldn't have a problem. I would be trusting you to demonstrate your art in a way that was appropriate to my level of understanding, not just choke me out.
:asian:

Agree! We all have to trust our sparring/wrestling partners that they won't try to hurt us intentionally.

The 'Sanda/Sanshou rules' is kicking + punching + stand up throwing (knee is allowed but elbow is not, no ground game). Here is an example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zh6KXEZyCDY&feature=youtu.be

 

[Hanzou]

I need to go 100% to see if my fist against his head works? Its been proven effective for 10000 years I'm not sure what's left to prove? Look bjj is the new kid on the block they had to prove it worked because it was new and unknown. People have been striking since the dawn of man. Not much left to prove.

Im not talking about a fist to the head, I'm talking about being able to knock a guy down with a slap from kneeling position.

 

[ballen0351]

Im not talking about a fist to the head, I'm talking about being able to knock a guy down with a slap from kneeling position.

I don't know that's not my style. I would assume if it were my style and I have faith in my style then it works. Why do I need to prove to you anything about my style and why do you care what or how I train?

 

[K-man]

Im not talking about a fist to the head, I'm talking about being able to knock a guy down with a slap from kneeling position.

Ah! What you are discussing here is the reaction to the push which is a further part of the training which is learning to receive and not brace, very much like Aikido. To people like you with no knowledge, no understanding and no intention of understanding it probably just looks like a room full of drunks staggering about the place.

And I bet you don't subscribe to Drunken Monkey Kung fu either.

 

[Steve]

I need to go 100% to see if my fist against his head works? Its been proven effective for 10000 years I'm not sure what's left to prove? Look bjj is the new kid on the block they had to prove it worked because it was new and unknown. People have been striking since the dawn of man. Not much left to prove.

BJJ is as old as any traditional martial art with roots as long and as deep. Older than Aikido, Systema, TKD, Sambo, and Krav Maga, for what it's worth.

 

[ballen0351]

BJJ is as old as any traditional martial art with roots as long and as deep. Older than Aikido, Systema, TKD, Sambo, and Krav Maga, for what it's worth.

I'm speaking more of the Gracie's brand. When they went on this challange tour or more appropriate marketing campaign. They were trying to sell the style. It was brilliant job and made them rich. But at the time BJJ was relatively unknown in the US.