Sport And TMA....Again
- Thread starter MJS
- Start date
Interesting, who were some of the big winners from the traditional striking arts? Weren't you the guy asking me for "credible sources"? And now you are telling me to "google it"!?!?:duh:
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
- Joined
- Dec 25, 2010
- Messages
- 10,480
- Reaction score
- 1,246
No I didn't ask you for anything.
There were hundreds of these matches going back to the 30s. I don't care enough to review them all and answer your question. If BJJ was the end all to be all top UFC fighters wouldn't need to train in anything else. The fact they bring in boxing, MT, karate, trainers to supplement means exactly what I said before. There is not now and never has been a perfect art. Every art has its weakness. The Gracie's are the top BJJ guys in the world they were fighting average to normal fighters in other arts not the top guys in the fields they better have won most matches.
What exactly does "stepping up" prove? A ring or octagon isn't for everybody......you could tear a guy a new tailhole in a ring and then walk outside and have yours ripped wide open in a split second. I have run across some TMA's I know could kill somebody instantly who have never been in a real world fight in their life and probably never will because they aren't wired for violence. I probably wouldn't last very long in a ring (I'm sure at 43 I wouldn't) but let somebody threaten me or my family. I have an internal switch I have learned to turn on when "I need to" that doesn't translate into points, belts around my waste or trophies but it serves its purpose when I need to "step up".
I never said BJJ was the end all be all. but it was the best as far as style vs style goes. There is really no debating that. Wrestling/Catch was a close second.
Stepping up was in reference to a "credible source". So in this context it's a great credible source in regards to actual proof something works.
speaking if "proof", no disrespect but you I fact do NOT "know" anyone who could "kill someone instantly", especially if they never, ever, ever have. Honestly man, especially if they have never been in one single fight. I just don't get that kind of blind faith or belief in something so silly.
now people keep bringing up the location of these early UFC's as some kind of point that what happened in these fights wasn't real. Why because it was in an "Octagon" it wasn't real, but if it was on your front porch it would of been? Or a street corner? The fact it was in an octagon instead of an ally or a field or a parking lot doesn't for a second make it any less "real".
all of this is my opinion of course....
Yes. Many times. I've been involved in the martial arts fight business for many years in about every single compacity imaginable. Plus many, many fights, bouncing, matches, etc.
but honestly, turning this about me personally instead of the topic which is martial arts as a whole is a lame defensive mechanism.
im not sure why the resistance to the idea that GJJ/BJJ proved to be a dominant art in style vs style match ups.
RTKDCMB
Senior Master
My name is Keith Hackney....
If I hit you in the temple it would work. If I hit you in the throat it would work. There are several places if hit hard enough could kill you or severely injure you. If I was in a competitive ring and throat striking was legal would I do it? Absolutely not. Somebody made mention of the rules allowing more when the Gracies were winning in the early UFC days so why didn't people utilize throat strikes or groin strikes (as an example)? Ethics perhaps?
If Gracie knocked a man out with a Thai elbow shot in a ring does that say anything about his BJJ skills? If a striker knocks a guy down, hops on him and puts him in an arm-bar is he a ground fighting super hero?
Spinedoc
Brown Belt
It is quite a bit different when the chance that you or your family could actually die than when the worst outcome is injury or loss. To actually try and equate the two is not only a logical fallacy, it is an inductive generalization.
The only way to know if your style or approach works in an "actual" life threatening street encounter is to actually use it in a real life threatening encounter. Go into a combat situation where someone is trying their hardest to actually kill you. Only then will you ever know.
The UFC and MMA in general are interesting, just like the NFL is interesting......as a game. Nothing more. Of course, that's my opinion.....YMMV.
Respectfully,
Mike
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Aren't blows to the temple and throat legal in the UFC? If I get a minute, I'll look up the actual rules. I'm pretty sure there is no prohibition on them, though.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Hanzou
Grandmaster
- Joined
- Sep 29, 2013
- Messages
- 6,770
- Reaction score
- 1,330
Throat strikes are very hard to pull off. The throat is a very small target, and its difficult to hit. This is especially true if someone is tagging you in the face. Conversely if you're on top of someone and is dropping elbows on your face, and then happen to drop an elbow on your throat, it could very likely kill you. The downward momentum, and your head on the canvas or ground can easily cause lethal damage, and that's why it's probably banned.
However, I'm curious; Do you feel that a lot of MAs can't compete because they don't allow throat strikes, biting, hair pulls and groin taps in competition?
lklawson
Grandmaster
This Keith Hackney?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Hackney
http://www.sherdog.com/news/articles/1/Keith-Hackney-Where-Is-He-Now-30163
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
lklawson
Grandmaster
lklawson
Grandmaster
I've known more than a few BJJ guys who have had "real, in the street" fights. One of my friends in Australia, famous for being one of the guys to answer the Yellow Bamboo challenge, has on two separate occasions, been assaulted "on the street." One instance this is a literal statement. Exited cars. He choked the attacker out and threw his car keys into the bushes.
If your criteria is "works in an 'actual' life threatening street encounter" then BJJ has already delivered. End of story.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
:jaw-dropping:
Mike this line of B.S. Has been used since the invention of the UFC by people not willing to step in and actually fight. "Oh it's fake or oh it isn't real fighting", etc.
infact most notably by legendary WingTsun master Emin Boztepe's! Did you know that the original UFC Super Fight" was not supposed to be Gracie vs Shamrock but actually Gracie vs Boztpese? But of course when push came to shove, after excuse after excuse he never stepped up .
he was offered a spot in the second UFC after bad mouthing the Gracie's, then offered a challenge match at a dojo, then offered a Super Fight vs Royce at UFC even though all over fighters had to fight in the brackets like the rest.
Emin found a way to back out each and every time .:lol2:
Mike this line of B.S. Has been used since the invention of the UFC by people not willing to step in and actually fight. "Oh it's fake or oh it isn't real fighting", etc.
infact most notably by legendary WingTsun master Emin Boztepe's! Did you know that the original UFC Super Fight" was not supposed to be Gracie vs Shamrock but actually Gracie vs Boztpese? But of course when push came to shove, after excuse after excuse he never stepped up .
he was offered a spot in the second UFC after bad mouthing the Gracie's, then offered a challenge match at a dojo, then offered a Super Fight vs Royce at UFC even though all over fighters had to fight in the brackets like the rest.
Emin found a way to back out each and every time .:lol2:
Ha, no. I was just being Snarky because that poster was being silly questioning my personnel fighting experience in the UFC instead of intelligent back and forth on topic type talk.
Hackney is an early favorite of mine and actually gave Royce one of his toughest early fight employing an early version of Sprawl and Brawl.
lklawson
Grandmaster
From memory you picked the video and it was not a great example of Systema training. The fact that you don't understand the principle they were training doesn't there is no principle and it isn't valid it isn't valid. And it doesn't have anything to do with speed. It is designed for a couple of things. Firstly Systema training is designed to make the practitioner comfortable if he goes to the ground and in that clip they are starting to experiment with angles and points that control body movement. How dare you say principles of another martial art don't work when you haven't the first bit of understanding of that system.
One of the principles of a Systema is that it is designed to work in chaos. It is designed to be effective against multiple attackers and the training in the first video and this one leads up to being on the ground with a number of attackers on their feet. For me to start posting Systema ground fighting videos would totally hijack the thread as Systema is neither sport nor TMA. A sport is conducted in a controlled environment with controlled conditions.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eyQny5Amv0E&desktop_uri=/watch?v=eyQny5Amv0E
Last edited by a moderator:
