Some thoughts about discussing the martial arts

[Dirty Dog]

The ratings icons are: Like, Dislike, Agree, Disagree, Funny, Informative and Useful.

So answering your question could be like, informative, or useful.

If I call you an ignorant git in the process (I am not...) it could be dislike, disagree, or REPORT.

If I make you laugh in the process, it could be funny.

 

[K-man]

Ok, can we add a couple of extras please. For example Might mean "I think you are an idiot" and would mean "you are plain ignorant". In fact, keep your eyes open, I'll see how the work in practice.

 

[Cirdan]

Can we have an "I fart in your general direction" rating too please?

 

[drop bear]

I agree when the discussion is opinion based. But when people made definitive statement like "Karate has no throws/Grappling" Then 10 people with all different backgrounds in several styles of Karate say "no thats not true I do throws in my style." Then your told no you dont, or well your throws suck so they dont count. Thats where the issues start. You can only politely disagree with someone so many times before it just gets silly then you cant tell if the guy really doesn't get it or is just trolling. Then you look at the body of work and you see the same nonsense in every section of the forum , karate, TKD, Hapkido, MMA, Judo, General thats when you lean more towards trolling then trying to learn. Like when you post about BJJ I respect your knowledge on the topic because its much greater then mine. If I said Steve you have no arm bars in BJJ and you said well yes we do then Ill take that at face value. Others dont give that same respect

see this is what i don't get. If you cant provide a source then that is where the conversation bogs down.

if Steve says there are no arm bars in bjj do we just accept that?

if hanzu says there are arm bars in bjj then what. Do we accept that as well?

"no there isn't"
"yes there is"
"you don't understand bjj"
"yes i do"
"no you don't"

 

[Chris Parker]

see this is what i don't get. If you cant provide a source then that is where the conversation bogs down.

if Steve says there are no arm bars in bjj do we just accept that?

if hanzu says there are arm bars in bjj then what. Do we accept that as well?

"no there isn't"
"yes there is"
"you don't understand bjj"
"yes i do"
"no you don't"

No, the conversation gets bogged down as you, and Hanzou, completely ignore most evidence unless it comes in a form you recognise…and even then, you argue against it. You are aware of what anecdotal evidence is, yeah? I mean, that's largely what you'll come across here…

The point is that there are a wide range of different types of evidence… ranging from circumstantial, disconnected (false evidence), specious evidence, anecdotal, eye-witness, supported, unsupported, and more… what you need to be able to do is to recognise both reliability and credibility in the evidence you are presented with… and, I have to say, in many cases, the source you're asking for is exactly what you're questioning… it's the person giving you the information and viewpoint.

I'm also going to say here and now that saying that you, for example, don't understand something is not an attack. It's a statement based on the evidence of your posts… and is meant to highlight that you can learn something, not accuse you of being lacking. There are any number of things that everyone here doesn't understand… I have no understanding whatsoever of how to fly a plane, for example. However, K-Man does know about it… so, if I was to tell him that planes work by flapping their wings up and down, as I only know about birds when it comes to flight, and he calls me out on it, pointing out that I don't understand how planes work (come to think of it, how do they work? Big, heavy things that don't fall to the ground? Freaky…), he'd be right to… and I then can take advantage of his knowledge to improve mine. Fighting against your own ignorance, getting snarky, and lashing out against people who, bluntly, are simply far more experienced and knowledgeable in these areas than you helps absolutely no-one… not you, not the people you're dealing with (as they're less likely to be accommodating or gentle in their explanations in future, if they even offer them), not the forum (it taints the entire board), not anyone else in the thread watching it… no-one.

 

[jamesbrown1]

Every martial art has its pros and cons.

 

[Cirdan]

Every martial art has its pros and cons.

Except Viking Berzerker Arts of course which naturally has no weaknesses.

 

[drop bear]

No, the conversation gets bogged down as you, and Hanzou, completely ignore most evidence unless it comes in a form you recognise…and even then, you argue against it. You are aware of what anecdotal evidence is, yeah? I mean, that's largely what you'll come across here…

The point is that there are a wide range of different types of evidence… ranging from circumstantial, disconnected (false evidence), specious evidence, anecdotal, eye-witness, supported, unsupported, and more… what you need to be able to do is to recognise both reliability and credibility in the evidence you are presented with… and, I have to say, in many cases, the source you're asking for is exactly what you're questioning… it's the person giving you the information and viewpoint.

I'm also going to say here and now that saying that you, for example, don't understand something is not an attack. It's a statement based on the evidence of your posts… and is meant to highlight that you can learn something, not accuse you of being lacking. There are any number of things that everyone here doesn't understand… I have no understanding whatsoever of how to fly a plane, for example. However, K-Man does know about it… so, if I was to tell him that planes work by flapping their wings up and down, as I only know about birds when it comes to flight, and he calls me out on it, pointing out that I don't understand how planes work (come to think of it, how do they work? Big, heavy things that don't fall to the ground? Freaky…), he'd be right to… and I then can take advantage of his knowledge to improve mine. Fighting against your own ignorance, getting snarky, and lashing out against people who, bluntly, are simply far more experienced and knowledgeable in these areas than you helps absolutely no-one… not you, not the people you're dealing with (as they're less likely to be accommodating or gentle in their explanations in future, if they even offer them), not the forum (it taints the entire board), not anyone else in the thread watching it… no-one.

so conversations will go a lot better if I know my place. And accept you are the authority on everything except planes at which point we all defer to kman.

obviously that is not going to happen. The expectation is unrealistic incredibly arrogant and insulting to pretty much everyone here.

i cant even imagine how you got to that stage in the first place. It cant be good for you.

live a little find a source every now and then.

 

[Chris Parker]

so conversations will go a lot better if I know my place. And accept you are the authority on everything except planes at which point we all defer to kman.

obviously that is not going to happen. The expectation is unrealistic incredibly arrogant and insulting to pretty much everyone here.

i cant even imagine how you got to that stage in the first place. It cant be good for you.

live a little find a source every now and then.

Dude, I wasn't talking about myself there… you and Hanzou have dealt with everyone on this forum that way… not just me.

And no, it's not a matter of "know your place"… or deferring to me on everything… but it is a matter of recognising when you don't know something, and others have a hell of a lot more knowledge and experience than you do.

And, frankly, this response is in the same vein. The call to "find a source" is ridiculous… in many cases, I am the source (when dealing with my understanding and knowledge). The same goes for others here… and that includes you.

Again, look at the terms "reliable" and "credible". If it meets both criteria, calls for other "sources", particularly of things that aren't as tangible, is just bull-headed stubbornness and ego.

 

[drop bear]

No, the conversation gets bogged down as you, and Hanzou, completely ignore most evidence unless it comes in a form you recognise…and even then, you argue against it. You are aware of what anecdotal evidence is, yeah? I mean, that's largely what you'll come across here…

The point is that there are a wide range of different types of evidence… ranging from circumstantial, disconnected (false evidence), specious evidence, anecdotal, eye-witness, supported, unsupported, and more… what you need to be able to do is to recognise both reliability and credibility in the evidence you are presented with… and, I have to say, in many cases, the source you're asking for is exactly what you're questioning… it's the person giving you the information and viewpoint.

I'm also going to say here and now that saying that you, for example, don't understand something is not an attack. It's a statement based on the evidence of your posts… and is meant to highlight that you can learn something, not accuse you of being lacking. There are any number of things that everyone here doesn't understand… I have no understanding whatsoever of how to fly a plane, for example. However, K-Man does know about it… so, if I was to tell him that planes work by flapping their wings up and down, as I only know about birds when it comes to flight, and he calls me out on it, pointing out that I don't understand how planes work (come to think of it, how do they work? Big, heavy things that don't fall to the ground? Freaky…), he'd be right to… and I then can take advantage of his knowledge to improve mine. Fighting against your own ignorance, getting snarky, and lashing out against people who, bluntly, are simply far more experienced and knowledgeable in these areas than you helps absolutely no-one… not you, not the people you're dealing with (as they're less likely to be accommodating or gentle in their explanations in future, if they even offer them), not the forum (it taints the entire board), not anyone else in the thread watching it… no-one.

you troll people. Not just me and for no good reason. Bluster and wind? Directionless post? Are you expecting Shakespeare?

You bully people while being super sensitive about the responses you get. I am defiantly not a victim i discuss robustly and expect robust response.

but neither are you.

you response to an op that was not as elegantly put as you would like.

Look, I think I get what you're getting at… but it's largely bluster and wind. There are some large and largely inaccurate generalisations here, as well as quite a lot of misconceptions about the way ranking is dealt with in many forms (historically, contemporarily, and culturally), which gives a result of a fairly directionless post, in the end saying nothing. You're mistaking the relative importance of Shodan (in systems that use it) for what it represents, and what it means/takes to achieve it… as well as ignoring the cultural reasons for different impressions. Why is a blackbelt seen as "expert" in the West? Well, that's to do with the way Westerners tend to view progressions, as well as the fact that early pioneers had relatively low Dan grades… the idea of a blackbelt was built up in the zeitgeist as something of value and respect (something that continues today, which is why there is such backlash against junior Dan grades, despite the fact that, as Donald said, it's entirely up to the system/organisation/school itself).

The idea of black being the "last colour" really doesn't mean anything either, you realise… honestly, I have trouble seeing where to start with the number of problems in that post

 

[drop bear]

Dude, I wasn't talking about myself there… you and Hanzou have dealt with everyone on this forum that way… not just me.

And no, it's not a matter of "know your place"… or deferring to me on everything… but it is a matter of recognising when you don't know something, and others have a hell of a lot more knowledge and experience than you do.

And, frankly, this response is in the same vein. The call to "find a source" is ridiculous… in many cases, I am the source (when dealing with my understanding and knowledge). The same goes for others here… and that includes you.

Again, look at the terms "reliable" and "credible". If it meets both criteria, calls for other "sources", particularly of things that aren't as tangible, is just bull-headed stubbornness and ego.

you are your own source?

 

[Cirdan]

you troll people. Not just me and for no good reason.

I think I would call it educating rather than trolling in most cases, certainly in yours drop bear.

 

[Chris Parker]

you troll people.

You don't have a clue what you're talking about, you realise… correcting the large number of errors some come up with is not "trolling"… your posts, on the other hand, seemingly designed to insight certain posters (including myself), are pretty much the textbook definition.

Not just me and for no good reason.

You're missing the backstories, the contexts, and, well, everything other than your prejudices here, you know…

Bluster and wind? Directionless post? Are you expecting Shakespeare?

Gee, sorry for being educated… must throw you a bit…

You bully people while being super sensitive about the responses you get.

I pay attention to the responses I get… that's quite a different thing to being "super sensitive" about them…

I am defiantly not a victim i discuss robustly and expect robust response.

I can see how you think that… but, to be blunt, you do not present robust discussion, you present sheer bloody minded denial of anyone else bringing you more (better) information. And as far as you expecting robust response… this is the way you respond to such? Right…

but neither are you.

Neither am I what? A victim? You're missing a contextual link in your sentence structure… I don't have a clue what you're talking about here.

you response to an op that was not as elegantly put as you would like.

(For those unaware, the following is a post of mine in response to one of Photon Guy's posts on rank… one in a series… and, as such, this is taken out of context entirely):

Look, I think I get what you're getting at… but it's largely bluster and wind. There are some large and largely inaccurate generalisations here, as well as quite a lot of misconceptions about the way ranking is dealt with in many forms (historically, contemporarily, and culturally), which gives a result of a fairly directionless post, in the end saying nothing. You're mistaking the relative importance of Shodan (in systems that use it) for what it represents, and what it means/takes to achieve it… as well as ignoring the cultural reasons for different impressions. Why is a blackbelt seen as "expert" in the West? Well, that's to do with the way Westerners tend to view progressions, as well as the fact that early pioneers had relatively low Dan grades… the idea of a blackbelt was built up in the zeitgeist as something of value and respect (something that continues today, which is why there is such backlash against junior Dan grades, despite the fact that, as Donald said, it's entirely up to the system/organisation/school itself).

The idea of black being the "last colour" really doesn't mean anything either, you realise… honestly, I have trouble seeing where to start with the number of problems in that post

What on earth does that post have to do with anything? You think that was me "trolling" Photon Guy? Seriously? Or me "bullying" him?

Dude… learn to read context.

And, mate, I'd love to how you would phrase that with more elegance (I'm pretty sure you meant eloquence, for the record…), care to attempt? If not, would you like to demonstrate how my post isn't eloquent (or elegant)? Or, say, demonstrate how elegant you think I thought I was being…?

 

[Chris Parker]

you are your own source?

I am the source for the information I provide, when the information I provide is my own experience and understanding, yes.

 

[Zero]

Why is a blackbelt seen as "expert" in the West? Well, that's to do with the way Westerners tend to view progressions, as well as the fact that early pioneers had relatively low Dan grades… the idea of a blackbelt was built up in the zeitgeist as something of value and respect (something that continues today, which is why there is such backlash against junior Dan grades, despite the fact that, as Donald said, it's entirely up to the system/organisation/school itself).

The idea of black being the "last colour" really doesn't mean anything either, you realise… honestly, I have trouble seeing where to start with the number of problems in that post

Look, I haven't had much to do with this thread so sorry for dropping in but surely you know black belt/low dan grades are only seen as "expert" generally by those outside of the arts or unfortunately in those mass-conveyor McDojos where people have either been duped or are happy to buy into the pretence?

I doubt very many on MT and including yourself would categorise many lower grade black belts as "expert". They may be very accomplished in certain areas of the style but it will be very impressive, if not incredible, if they are rounded in all aspects to that level of expertise or knowledge.

I think from your last sentence you agree with that.

It would be kind of nice if the final colour went from black back to white to indicate the full circle of study and awareness and in many practical senses this happens for those who wear the bb long enough (a kind of frayed, washed out grey/white, sweat stained colour).

 

[Chris Parker]

Look, I haven't had much to do with this thread so sorry for dropping in but surely you know black belt/low dan grades are only seen as "expert" generally by those outside of the arts or unfortunately in those mass-conveyor McDojos were people have either been duped or are happy to buy into the pretence?

I doubt very many on MT and including yourself would categorise many lower grade black belts as "expert". They may be very accomplished in certain areas of the style but it will be very impressive, if not incredible, if they are rounded in all aspects to that level of expertise or knowledge.

I think from your last sentence you agree with that.

It would be kind of nice if the final colour went from black back to white to indicate the full circle of study and awareness and in many practical senses this happens for those who wear the bb long enough (a kind of frayed, washed out grey/white, sweat stained colour).

Drop Bear didn't say any of that… he copy and pasted my response to a different thread without giving it the proper quote notation. Those are my words, and completely unrelated to this thread.

EDIT: This is where he took it from, for the record: Putting the black belt on a pedestal MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community

 

[Zero]

Ta, I will get back out of this thread, it's somewhat interesting reading but I have clearly made a hash of it hehe! : )

 

[K-man]

so conversations will go a lot better if I know my place. And accept you are the authority on everything except planes at which point we all defer to kman.

obviously that is not going to happen. The expectation is unrealistic incredibly arrogant and insulting to pretty much everyone here.

Conversations will always go better with good manners and your little snipe here did not go unnoticed. You might notice I don't post much if at all on the BJJ threads. Same for Mauy Thai and a multitude of others. Why? Because I don't have the necessary knowledge. If you look at post numbers it has taken me six years to reach 5000 posts. You have nearly 2000 in less than 12 months. How does that work? Not even Hanzou had that many posts and he has been accused of trolling.

I post where I believe I have sufficient knowledge from experience to make a contribution. A number of people post in areas they have no knowledge and pretend to be experts. Then they take offence when people call them out. If that is "knowing your place" fair enough. I know my place is not making stupid posts in the BJJ threads.

Sure, I get agitated when people who don't understand my training get it wrong then try to hang s#'t on everything I do or say. Perhaps years of training counts for something and you can tell from people's posts their level of expertise.

I think if you were to read back through the earlier posts in this thread you may well find some good advice as to how to post without getting up people's noses.

 

[Steve]

I agree, K-man, that manners are very important. I try to be courteous, but I'm pretty sure you view my behavior as rude, at times. Conversely, I view your behavior here as rude, at times. We all get heated. We all get our feathers ruffled. And we all write things we know we probably shouldn't. It's not just Hanzou and Drop Bear and me causing conflict. It's not just the "BJJ Fanboys" or the MMA fanboys who are causing conflict.

I will accept full responsibility for my own role in the situation. Can you do the same?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I agree, K-man, that manners are very important. I try to be courteous, but I'm pretty sure you view my behavior as rude, at times. Conversely, I view your behavior here as rude, at times. We all get heated. We all get our feathers ruffled. And we all write things we know we probably shouldn't. It's not just Hanzou and Drop Bear and me causing conflict. It's not just the "BJJ Fanboys" or the MMA fanboys who are causing conflict.

I will accept full responsibility for my own role in the situation. Can you do the same?

Not commenting on the current interpersonal kerfuffle, but just a general observation from watching lots of arguments over the years...

After an argument, it's pretty common for someone to try cooling things down by saying "okay, I'll admit that I was partially to blame, but I'd like you to admit that you were partially in the wrong as well." It's only natural - we feel like we're making a concession, so why shouldn't the other guy make a concession as well.

The funny thing is, in my experience it seems like the other person is significantly more likely to accept responsibility or offer an apology when we leave out that second part. When someone just says, "hey, you know what? I was being unreasonable about that. I'm sorry," the other person is much more likely to say "Hey, I think I was overreacting. Just had a bad day. I'm sorry too." For some reason, many folks are more likely to offer a sincere apology or accept responsibility when they feel they are freely choosing to do so rather than having it demanded of them.

Maybe that's just the people I hang out with, though. I certainly can't claim to have any universal insight into human behavior.