Some thoughts about discussing the martial arts

[Tony Dismukes]

I've been noticing repeated discussions in this forum along the lines of the following ...

Training method x sucks.

No it doesn't, you just don't understand it right. Here's how it works.

I've heard all that before, and my experience/observations says that it doesn't work.

Well, you're just ignorant then. Or a troll. It does too work.

Does not.

Uh huh.

Nuh huh.

(Repeat for 20 pages, then start over in the next thread.)

Now, I've been training long enough that I have my own opinions about the efficacy of different training methods. I definitely consider certain training methods suboptimal compared to others. I've seen some training methods that I consider downright detrimental. I'm sure there are people on this forum whose training methods I might have some harsh words for if they asked for my blunt opinion. That said, there are some things I try to keep in mind before getting sucked too far into these kinds of arguments.

There are martial artists I deeply respect who are firm advocates for training methods that I don't care for.
There are plenty of people who could kick my butt who train with methods I don't care for.
I don't know everything. I've changed my mind about the best way to train over the years and I may very well do so again in the future.
I'm here to learn and enjoy the conversation, not to prove how much more I know than other people.
I will never, ever change anyone's mind by calling them ignorant or otherwise insulting them.
If someone doesn't seem to understand my point, I may try rephrasing it in a way that makes more sense to them.
Just because someone doesn't agree with me, doesn't mean they don't understand my point. (Or that they're stupid or ignorant or a troll)
If the person I'm talking to does understand my point, but still doesn't agree with me, it's a waste of time to take offense or to repeat myself endlessly.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

BTW, there's a helpful test you can try to determine whether you actually understand the other person's position in an argument (on any subject, not just martial arts).

If you really understand the other person's position, you should be able to restate it in your own words so that the other person will agree: "That's right. That's exactly what I'm saying." For bonus points, you should be able to answer objections to that position in such a way that the other person would agree with.

If you can't do this, then you probably don't understand what you're arguing against and might be better served asking questions to clarify instead.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Good points Tony it is a shame more people do not think like that.
But then where would all the fire and adrenalin infused battle of words go for some people.

 

[donald1]

Perhaps some things work better for some than others or a matter of perspective
None the less it should still be important to stop arguing and avoid insulting others.
Best of luck

 

[Shai Hulud]

Perhaps some things work better for some than others or a matter of perspective
None the less it should still be important to stop arguing and avoid insulting others.
Best of luck

My thoughts exactly. Different strokes for different folks.

 

[ballen0351]

Its a Martial arts forum there is only so much you can talk about before you start t recycle old topics. Thats one of the reasons I liked having other topic areas to discuss like politics ect it changes the pace. Almost all martal arts forums have this. Its the nature of the beast when you restrict a forum to one narrow line of discussion. If nobody commented in the repeat discussions this place would be dead

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Perhaps some things work better for some than others or a matter of perspective
None the less it should still be important to stop arguing and avoid insulting others.
Best of luck

I have no problem with arguing, necessarily. We can learn some good things through argument. I just don't think it's helpful to be insulting or to repeat the same argument endlessly without bringing something new to it.

 

[EddieCyrax]

But you forgot that everyone "knows" they are an expert on all topics, and their opinion is the only one that counts.

Why doesn't the population see the world through my eyes... Sure would make the world a scarier place.....ha ha ha

 

[Buka]

The real question is - does the anti-grappling techniques hidden in the kata of non-traditional martial arts have more to do with what God wanted or is it a result of a wanna-be by-partisan elected official working with a congress slanted against him dealing with the milieu of gay marriage as it applies to illegal immigration and the use of GMOs in feeding said immigrants?

Discuss amongst yourselves.

I think we would all be better served listening to, and giving serious consideration, to what Tony has said. Just a thought.

 

[Xue Sheng]

The real question is - does the anti-grappling techniques hidden in the kata of non-traditional martial arts have more to do with what God wanted or is it a result of a wanna-be by-partisan elected official working with a congress slanted against him dealing with the milieu of gay marriage as it applies to illegal immigration and the use of GMOs in feeding said immigrants?

well that would depend on whether or not you were talking organic on Tuesdays with a cheetah named Horatio who was rather fond of roasted plum pudding

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Training method x sucks.

No it doesn't, you just don't understand it right. Here's how it works.

What should you do if someone doesn't like your training method? Should you spend 20 pages discussion to prove that your training method is valid?

IMO, you are not trying to sell your train method online for money. Whether someone likes it or not will have nothing to do with your bank account. When you have spent more time and explain in more detail, if you find out that someone still doesn't like it, in Chinese term, it's called to "use your hot face to touch someone's cold butt". Why do you want to do that for? Will it be better to end like the following conversation?

A: Training method x sucks.
B: Let's just agree our disagreement.

This way, all arguments can be prevented in the early stage.

 

[Buka]

well that would depend on whether or not you were talking organic on Tuesdays with a cheetah named Horatio who was rather fond of roasted plum pudding

Maybe most names are fine for cheetahs, but I really like Horatio. Plum pudding....now we're talking.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Maybe most names are fine for cheetahs, but I really like Horatio. Plum pudding....now we're talking.

How are you with bread pudding... I'm making that this weekend

But to the topic at hand

I use to argue on sites but then I realized it was a complete waste of time and now I tend to go with "you can't argue with an idiot, they will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience" :asian:

 

[Elbowgrease]

If everyone knew that they don't know anything, the whole world would be perfect.
Maybe.
I generally try not to look at things that are going to get me heated that are completely out of my control, sometimes it's just better to remain ignorant.
I've pounded my head against enough brick walls to believe that it's probably not the most effective training method, doesn't mean I don't still do it, sometimes brick walls can be pretty deceptive. I guess that for any individual, when the time is right, they may also decide that they've pursued this training method far enough.

 

[Hanzou]

I think some of the discussion would go quite a bit smoother around here if people weren't so sensitive about their art of choice. I've been in plenty of discussions where my art has been downplayed or its flaws pointed out, and I respectfully responded to either correct or disagree with the statements made.

Do the same thing to some other arts around here and a certain segment of people just go a little bit crazy. It's quite the spectacle to see. Sometimes I picture some posters foaming at the mouth while they type their responses. Always gets a little chuckle out of me.

Some consistency and far less hypocrisy would be nice.

 

[Cirdan]

Do the same thing to some other arts around here and a certain segment of people just go a little bit crazy. It's quite the spectacle to see. Sometimes I picture some posters foaming at the mouth while they type their responses. Always gets a little chuckle out of me.

And that kind of everyday smug sadism expressed on a forum is known as... ?
No reason to tiptoe around the issue, your intentions are an open book. Zip up and find something better to do for cripe`s sake.

 

[Hanzou]

The post above is a perfect illustration of my point.

 

[Tez3]

I think the problem often comes when people disbelieve posters when that poster gives either their opinion or their experience. For example if I post that I run five miles every morning I don't expect someone to then post that I don't/can't run five miles a day because it's not possible for anyone to run five miles. If I post up that in my opinion running five miles a day stops you catching colds, I'd expect someone to disagree, post up proof even but not call me a liar, I'm not lying, it's my opinion which can be wrong or mistaken but it is a genuinely held one. Likewise with any martial art, most of us hold genuine opinion about our arts, we certainly know what we've been taught, now that may not be what some consider correct teaching or it may not be as effective as we hope but it doesn't make it impossible or a lie. I haven't found people sensitive over their arts, I have found that if a poster continuously pokes people it gets annoying. People don't froth at the mouth, they get frustrated and often rather sad that a decent discussion cannot be held. I get sad rather than angry that a potentially good discussion goes off into the wilderness.
We have to work on a certain trust here as we are all far away. We have to take it on trust that we do what we say we do, so when continuously asked for 'proof' of what we say in such a way that it seems like we are being accused of lying it is provocative. We may be mistaken but we aren't lying.
One thing to embrace is the huge variety of styles and training methods the posters on here have. Take karate for example we have posters from many different 'groups' with different training styles, different thoughts and different opinions on their styles, they have different aims when they train but all under the umbrella of Karate. Not one of them represents how it 'must/should' be, you watch one train it doesn't mean all train that way, there is no representative that does the totally 'correct' Karate, it's all Karate! Some look similar, some look as if they are something else. Accepting differences is part of being able to debate, accepting that because one place does Bo training doesn't mean that all have to or that there is no Bo training in Karate. If someone tells me that in their club/school it's the norm to train with the Bo, I cannot then tell him he doesn't can I because he obviously does. I don't know whether it's a part of their style or whether it was in days gone by but I don't disbelieve he does it.

I'm very 'aware' how much I don't know, it's one of the reasons I come here, I love martial arts, all the ones I know about, I'm sure there's plenty I haven't heard about too. I like finding the differences and I like seeing the familiarities, my 'English' respect is not a derogatory one.

 

[MJS]

I've been noticing repeated discussions in this forum along the lines of the following ...

Training method x sucks.

No it doesn't, you just don't understand it right. Here's how it works.

I've heard all that before, and my experience/observations says that it doesn't work.

Well, you're just ignorant then. Or a troll. It does too work.

Does not.

Uh huh.

Nuh huh.

(Repeat for 20 pages, then start over in the next thread.)

Now, I've been training long enough that I have my own opinions about the efficacy of different training methods. I definitely consider certain training methods suboptimal compared to others. I've seen some training methods that I consider downright detrimental. I'm sure there are people on this forum whose training methods I might have some harsh words for if they asked for my blunt opinion. That said, there are some things I try to keep in mind before getting sucked too far into these kinds of arguments.

There are martial artists I deeply respect who are firm advocates for training methods that I don't care for.
There are plenty of people who could kick my butt who train with methods I don't care for.
I don't know everything. I've changed my mind about the best way to train over the years and I may very well do so again in the future.
I'm here to learn and enjoy the conversation, not to prove how much more I know than other people.
I will never, ever change anyone's mind by calling them ignorant or otherwise insulting them.
If someone doesn't seem to understand my point, I may try rephrasing it in a way that makes more sense to them.
Just because someone doesn't agree with me, doesn't mean they don't understand my point. (Or that they're stupid or ignorant or a troll)
If the person I'm talking to does understand my point, but still doesn't agree with me, it's a waste of time to take offense or to repeat myself endlessly.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

Yup, in a nutshell. Speaking for myself, there are some arts out there, that I am just not fond of, and highly doubt I ever will be. So much to the point, that if "X" art was THE only art left to train in, I'd probably quit training. However, I don't, or at least try not to run around, and bash "X" art. Hey, if someone wants to train in it, rock on! LOL!

 

[Tez3]

The post above is a perfect illustration of my point.

You were being provocative in sneering at posters on here, Cirdan isn't being 'sensitive'. You have admitted you like to
laugh at posters you have wound up.