Passing Judgement on other styles...

[Steve]

My 2 cents is this. There are bad and good martial arts, just as there is bad and good poetry or art. Yes, there is bad poetry. Just because someone writes something down on paper doesn't mean it's any good.

At the same time, to appreciate some poetry, the reader needs to take the time to educate him or herself so that the intent and artistry in the poem can be understood.

I definitely believe that there are styles that are crap. Unrealistic and mostly pointless. But, I will also allow that there are styles, just as there are poems, that require some amount of education before being understood. They may seem to be weak or pointless to the lay observer, but with some amount of diligence, the value can be realized.

 

[sjansen]

Just a quick question Scott. When were you in and what is your paygrade jarhead? LOL! I was in during Post-Gulf War and got out just before Kosovo. I wasn't bragging, just stating what happened to make note and example. I hope you were kidding about the whole "Beat you like a redheaded step-child" thing pal. If you weren't you owe me an apology unless you hold a rank higher than Sgt., have been in combat in places such as Albania, Tunisia, Liberia, Haiti, Bosnia, Israel, and Turkey. I survived a 2000 ft. helicopter crash and watched the dual helicopter crash during Operation Purple Star, pulled a lot of Marines and Army personnel out of the Atlantic.

So as I see it, I feel as though you challenged me and that is against the rules of this site. They have their own UCMJ,(Uniform Code of Military Justice). Threatening or making another member feel challenged is grounds for dismissal. Plus I found in the Marines like any dojang there is always that "Tough Guy" oh well.

That part was meant toungue in cheek, but I hope that the rest was done in fun. Although we argue like brothers I hate to see the different branches actually hurt each other. Sounds like we were in the same time (1989-1994).

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I am always more interested in how a martial art developed and why it developed in the way that it did.

Each martial art was developed to fight against specific groups of people within a given region who were all armed with weapons of that particular region and time period. Some MA weapons were developed from tools and implements readily at hand, while others were designed and built specifically to be effective against opponents with this, that or the other type of armor.

Some martial arts are very well suited to certain body types. I practice taekwondo and for good reason: I'm 6'4, just under 200 pounds, and have a short torso with long legs and arms. Needless to say, I get fantastic range on my kicks and have enough arm length that with my guard up, an opponent under six feet tall has a hard time getting close enough to score on me. Taekwondo is definitely well suited to my body type.

I also practice hapkido. Parts of it are well suited to my body type, but a master thrower I aint. Those long legs put my center of gravity up very, very high. Needless to say, getting low enough to do a decent throw against an opponent of any real weight is something that most opponents don't have to bother with. Does it mean that I can't throw anyone? Of course not. I can throw reasonably well, and certainly well enough to deal with some untrained slob.

All arts have their own inherent strengths. Boxing has strong punches. Taekwondo is a strong striking art, particularly with kicks. Other arts focus on locks, grapples, and groundwork.

Likewise, all arts have their own inherent weaknesses. Some arts weaknesses make them more vulnerable to some arts' particular strength. Kind of a situational thing and it is good to cross train and pick up techniques that fill in some of the holes in your own art. Just keep in mind that a highly trained practitioner of an art that yours' is more vulnerable to is still going to be very difficult. Of course you need to then force him or her to play your game instead of theirs.

Excepting arts made up by disgraced students of other arts who don't have the background to create a martial art, all martial arts are inherently equal, but their strengths and weaknesses are distributed differently.

One last note: the broader an art is in its range of techniques, the less focus it has in any one particular area. Because of this, MA's such as Hapkido will take longer to master because of the breadth of technique involved. An art like taekwondo doesn't have as much breadth, but one can get a great deal of depth in it comparatively quickly. Certainly, one can gain substantial depth in hapkido, but there is more of it to learn, thus it generally takes the logging of more gym time. This doesn't make one better than the other; just a different dynamic.

For myself, I practice taekwondo as my main empty hand art. I train in hapkido because it offers a lot of things that I would othewise not have access to, and who knows? Perhaps one day, hapkido will become my main art. I also have an interest in tang soo do, kenpo and tai chi, but for now, I am still plumbing the depths of taekwondo.

Daniel

 

[tshadowchaser]

Viewing a few classes or even being in a style for a few months is not enough to judge the style by. Instructors some times get on a “kick” and want to emphases one thing or another and that may only be a small part of the style.
Unless one has a great understanding of a system /style it is hard to say what makes that style good or bad

 

[Si-Je]

I just want to make an official apology for my comments about BJJ. I am biased against it and it was this forum that helped me to see it, I mean, I knew I don't like it, but it was not my intention to be cruel or rude to those that take it.

A large part of my experience in MA was in JJJ, and while training I received a dilibating neck injury that still plagues me today. I was learning a new ankle, knee and hip lock and was scissored in the legs while learning the new technique. The end result was my head hitting the floor like a yard dart and my neck vertebrae being cracked. I was 18, lifting weights, and young and healthy, and the doctor x-rayed me and said I HAD to have the vertebre fused together and that I could NEVER have another neck trauma again (i.e. do martial arts), that I could have been paralyzed forever.
I freaked. And went to a chiropractor, who x-rayed me and "fixed" it. I slept with a neck brace on every night, and wore every day for a month before I could go back to training. So, still I thought, I was tough and still did JJJ and was good.
Until....
I was attacked a couple of years later in my apartment and was tackled to the ground by a guy who pined be between a door frame (to my bathroom incidentally) I thought JJJ would work, but it didn't. I didn't have the room to utilize the plethora of techniques I'd learned and was very proud of. Fact being, I got my butt kicked, but I wasn't killed, because of my brains. But, that's another story
So, I sought an art that dealt with close quarters combat that would "answer" my problems of having a bad neck (and back now that I'm older) and WC was the thing for me.

And so, I am apologizing for my rude comments and prejudice against BJJ because I've realized it's really due to these two experiences. I should be more mad at Japanese Ju-jitsu!

But, either way it doesn't matter. I didn't realize WHY I had such a problem with the art, until now, and I NEVER meant to disrespect the people that take the art.
Although, my preference will still remain the same leaning towards WC, of course, (because of these and other experiences) I still wish to express my deepest regrets for being such an *** about it all. I've been a jerk and I should have been more diplomatic, and am very sorry if I offended, hurt, or angered anyone.
-
Sincerely,
Nikki Swann

 

[atafamily]

I have read thru all these posts and as a newbie to MA, we have had our son in an ATA school for past 6 months.

I was kinda curious to find out more about them so I went to the internet...

Now I am going to prob start in this school soon with my 6 year old son. We have taken my son to two tournaments where he competed as a tiny tiger.. The look on his face when he had to go out and do his forms and weapons and the confidence it gave him to get up in font of people was priceless... not to mention they give all tiny tigers medals or trophys for attending.

Now my son, who is an incredible fast learner was asked to join the leadership program, fyi we had to buy sparring gear($288), new uniform & enrollment fee ($500) and sign three year contract for $150 month.

Now one big thing I have noticed in the leadership class is they are actually teaching him FULL forms, more weapons and he now can start earning points towards state champ.

Its is cheaper now for me to go as the second person. So I am going to go do it.

Anyway back to the style... after the initial $$ shock I said I went to the net and some people, not all slam the ATA whenever they can. I am sure there are bad schools and good schools in any style. I was disappointed how bad people slam the ata because at least our school does teach contact sparring, self defense and has a great instructor.

As a new student I will respect all forms because of the dedication and hard work one must do to excel in their own style. Is one style better than other, I say no... you start a style to get exactly what you want from it.. could someone with years of experience in TKD compete MMA.. without any BJJ skills.. prob would not make it once the fight went to the floor.

Anyway I admire all forms and will never talk down about any style..

With respect -

Pete

 

[Si-Je]

you are awesome as a parent and as a student!

We don't charge anywhere NEAR that much money, and we have extra gear for students just starting out so they don't have to buy the gear right off.

But, just our philosophy to teaching MA. You shouldn't have to pay so much to start.
You might not like that style, and want to go to another, and shouldn't have to front so much money up front.
But, if your kiddo loved it! then it was worth it!
I have a 2 year old that loves Wing chun (as she says "ching chun" lol! She's still working on her w's)

But, if this is making you and your kiddo happy, then by all means enjoy it! It IS worth every minute. The disipline, hard work, and dedication is all apart of EVERY art! That is the basics that anyone needs to learn in life in general, and will benefit anyone no matter what art they take.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Anyway back to the style... after the initial $$ shock I said I went to the net and some people, not all slam the ATA whenever they can. I am sure there are bad schools and good schools in any style. I was disappointed how bad people slam the ata because at least our school does teach contact sparring, self defense and has a great instructor.

As a new student I will respect all forms because of the dedication and hard work one must do to excel in their own style. Is one style better than other, I say no... you start a style to get exactly what you want from it.. could someone with years of experience in TKD compete MMA.. without any BJJ skills.. prob would not make it once the fight went to the floor.

The ATA catches a lot of flack, primarily due to the aforementioned sticker shock. That said, the ATA hardly has a monopoly on expensive programs or high monthlies. Actually, I don't consider 150 a month to be all that bad if the training is worthwhile.

The other thing that the ATA gets slammed for is the plethora of belts and of course, the camo belt. The whole closed tournament circuit also gets jumped on. I said this in another thread: the trappings are just the trappings. Bottom line is the instruction: good or bad? And that varries from school to school, regardless of organization.

I know some fine people who have been associated with the ATA, though never actually having been to an ATA school, my opinion is entirely based upon the fine character of these people and what they have said about it.

Congrats to you and your son on the beginning of your martial journey!

Best wishes!

Daniel

 

[Guardian]

Lord! I responded in the other thread to have fun, but I didn't see the amount they charge for that fun, $150 a month and a 3 year contract, goodness, $500 for this, $280 for that, I long for the old days LOL.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

I think placing judgement on other styles is stupid.

 

[matt.m]

She hit the nail on the head. Spending time, quality time with your child is great. To have a family thing to do together is just fabulous.

you are awesome as a parent and as a student!

We don't charge anywhere NEAR that much money, and we have extra gear for students just starting out so they don't have to buy the gear right off.

But, just our philosophy to teaching MA. You shouldn't have to pay so much to start.
You might not like that style, and want to go to another, and shouldn't have to front so much money up front.
But, if your kiddo loved it! then it was worth it!
I have a 2 year old that loves Wing chun (as she says "ching chun" lol! She's still working on her w's)

But, if this is making you and your kiddo happy, then by all means enjoy it! It IS worth every minute. The disipline, hard work, and dedication is all apart of EVERY art! That is the basics that anyone needs to learn in life in general, and will benefit anyone no matter what art they take.

 

[Ronin74]

But we ALLL know XUEFU is superior to all that came before...right :mst:

I think someone's forgetting about a lethal octagon-tested art called Rex-Kwon-Do... LOL, j/k

Seriously, I'm in agreement with a few of the folks here that it's A) a sign of not really having mature sense of learning, and B) it's more of the people in the art, and not the art itself.

Now as far as learning goes, if you're going to pass any kind of judgement on a particular style, what's the point of trying it?

As for the people, I honestly think it comes down to how well the teacher teaches, and how well the student learns. An instructor may know everything there is to know about their art, but if their abilties as a teacher can't fully communicate and present the art, then it can make for an incomplete representation of the art. On the student, it comes down to how well they can pick up the curriculum. If a teacher, to the best of his abilities, taught all his/her students the importance of blocking, and for some reason, only one person doesn't get it, they may start wondering if the art "really works".