Some questions to those of you who operate, attend, or promote non affiliated studios...

Daniel Sullivan

Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
May 27, 2008
Messages
6,472
Reaction score
271
Location
Olney, Maryland
...and who may also love to hate the big orgs, particularly the Kukkiwon/WTF.

If you operate or instruct at an independent school...
  • What is your school called?
  • What is it that caused you to become an independent school?
  • How does your taekwondo differ from what is taught by the big Orgs, particularly the Kukkiwon/WTF? Please describe what it is that you teach.
  • How are your students benfited specifically by your school being independent? If you say that you teach like a drill seargent and run your students until they look like the Spartans from 300, that isn't a result of independent status; that's just your teaching style.
  • What can you as a school owner do to benefit your school and students that you could not do if you were affiliated with the Kukkiwon/WTF or other large org?
Please do not take this as an opportunity to bash orgs or to debate historicity beyond the scope of this thread. I am interested in factual answers to the above questions and intelligent dialogue.
 

dancingalone

Grandmaster
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Messages
5,322
Reaction score
281
If you operate or instruct at an independent school...
  • What is your school called?
  • What is it that caused you to become an independent school?
  • How does your taekwondo differ from what is taught by the big Orgs, particularly the Kukkiwon/WTF? Please describe what it is that you teach.
  • How are your students benfited specifically by your school being independent? If you say that you teach like a drill seargent and run your students until they look like the Spartans from 300, that isn't a result of independent status; that's just your teaching style.
  • What can you as a school owner do to benefit your school and students that you could not do if you were affiliated with the Kukkiwon/WTF or other large org?
Please do not take this as an opportunity to bash orgs or to debate historicity beyond the scope of this thread. I am interested in factual answers to the above questions and intelligent dialogue.
I'm in a somewhat unique position as I run an independent TKD class out of my church parish, yet I bought a dojang last quarter from a KKW black belt. I am looking to fold my church students into the main dojang as the facilities are much nicer. I will answer your questions from the perspective of how I ran the church class although obviously that will change shortly.What is your school called? St. XXXX Catholic Church Tae Kwon Do Club and MinistryWhat is it that caused you to become an independent school? It's a free class within a church setting. It seemed inappropriate to add outside entanglements given that context.How does your taekwondo differ from what is taught by the big Orgs, particularly the Kukkiwon/WTF? Please describe what it is that you teach.Chang Hon patterns with lots of training influences from aikido, judo, and Shorin-ryu karate. Pretty unlike KKW material.How are your students benfited specifically by your school being independent? No outside fees imposed. The freedom & atmosphere conducive to adopt practices, including prayer, very contextual and befitting a parish ministry.What can you as a school owner do to benefit your school and students that you could not do if you were affiliated with the Kukkiwon/WTF or other large org? Not really applicable. As we do our own thing technically, membership in the KKW or other organization really never came into play. The situation is entirely different in my new commercial venture where it might very well make sense to give KKW certification since that is what the previous owner did.
 

Markku P

Blue Belt
Joined
Dec 12, 2010
Messages
287
Reaction score
1
Location
Finland, Helsinki
We were independent before but now we Issue Kukkiwon certificates to our students. I still teach what I think my students need and I think everyone is happy with our training. The Difference is that now everyone feels that we "belong" something bigger. I have been critical towards Kukkiwon but I don't really see that anyone else offers better service right now.

Short answer is, we teach same material as we were independent, nothing has changed with that.:)

Yours,

Markku P.
 

Twin Fist

Grandmaster
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
7,185
Reaction score
210
Location
Nacogdoches, Tx
1-twin fist martial arts I certify students in "American Tae Kwon Do"
2-i dont like orgs
3-the kkw/wtf is focused on sport, my TKD is focused on self defense. we do NO olympic style anything
4-the students benefit from my having the freedom to do whatever i think is important.
5-as long as i belong to an org i have to follow the orgs rules. As an indenpendant, i am free to grow in whatever direction i think is best.
 

Markku P

Blue Belt
Joined
Dec 12, 2010
Messages
287
Reaction score
1
Location
Finland, Helsinki
How are your students benfited specifically by your school being independent?

I didn't see that we benefit as independent school. Kukkiwon fees are very cheap and their demands are quite small.

Name: MP-Taekwondo akademi

Style: WTF/Kukkiwon

We train: Sparring (WTF and Kickboxing), Poomsae, Hosinsul, and some Boxing/Kickboxing drills (with adults)

Yours,

Markku P.
 

SahBumNimRush

Master of Arts
Joined
Dec 17, 2009
Messages
1,861
Reaction score
216
Location
USA
  • What is your school called?
School Association: Kang's Taekwondo Association

School name: Ohio Valley Taekwondo Academy
National Organization: United States Taekwondo Won (does not set technical standards, the organization is a charity foundation whose mission is to preserve the "traditional styles and moral culture" of Taekwondo.
  • What is it that caused you to become an independent school?
Barring the the old days of the KTA and USTU, we were never affiliated with a larger organization. While we supported the USTU back in the day, we never practiced or promoted much of the Olympic style curriculum.
  • How does your taekwondo differ from what is taught by the big Orgs, particularly the Kukkiwon/WTF? Please describe what it is that you teach.
We practice the old forms: Kicho Hyungs, Pyung Ahn Hyungs, Bassai, Naihanchi Hyungs, Chinto, Kang Song Kun, etc.. .
We do not practice olympic style sparring rules, and participate in the old 3 point style competitions (not as many left these days).
Beyond those technical differences I cannot speak to what is specifically different since I've never trained at a larger org affiliated school.
  • How are your students benfited specifically by your school being independent? If you say that you teach like a drill seargent and run your students until they look like the Spartans from 300, that isn't a result of independent status; that's just your teaching style.
I see no benefit or hinderance in this matter, what our students practice is just a different style of Taekwondo than what is practiced in orgs like the KKW, ATA, and ITF.
  • What can you as a school owner do to benefit your school and students that you could not do if you were affiliated with the Kukkiwon/WTF or other large org?
Same answer as above.
 
OP
D

Daniel Sullivan

Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
May 27, 2008
Messages
6,472
Reaction score
271
Location
Olney, Maryland
1-twin fist martial arts I certify students in "American Tae Kwon Do"

I assume that your certifications are in house. Is American Tae Kwon Do a style that yours and other schools teach in a semi-uniform way or is it simply what you call your curriculum?

Also, do you use pumse/hyeong/tul/whatever term you use for forms? And if so, do you use established forms or did were they created specifically for American Taekwondo?

You do not spar under the WTF rule set; do you spar under a different rule set or does American Taekwondo have its own?

Thank you
 

Twin Fist

Grandmaster
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
7,185
Reaction score
210
Location
Nacogdoches, Tx
the whole Allen Steen line in texas calls the art either TKD or American TKD, depending. the breakdown is, best guess? about 50/50

i took my instructors curriculum, and added to it, i subtracted nothing, so the curriculum is pretty close across the schools in the allen steen lineage here. some slight differences, We all do one steps, but some do different one steps than others. we all do the same kata, the Chong hon set, the original TKD forms. But we might not do them the same exact way. The sparring is different from school to school but i have never seen a school that didnt spar, and that didnt require hard contact in sparring. We use standard open rules. a general rule is no face contact below brown belt level. we use brown and NOT red, generally, but some schools do use red somewhere in the line.

I assume that your certifications are in house. Is American Tae Kwon Do a style that yours and other schools teach in a semi-uniform way or is it simply what you call your curriculum?

Also, do you use pumse/hyeong/tul/whatever term you use for forms? And if so, do you use established forms or did were they created specifically for American Taekwondo?

You do not spar under the WTF rule set; do you spar under a different rule set or does American Taekwondo have its own?

Thank you
 

Dirty Dog

MT Senior Moderator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2009
Messages
23,355
Reaction score
9,095
Location
Pueblo West, CO
...and who may also love to hate the big orgs, particularly the Kukkiwon/WTF.

I certainly don't hate any org. I don't think the sun rises and sets at the word of any org either.

If you operate or instruct at an independent school...

I'm only an assistant instructor, but I'll do my best.

What is your school called?

Pueblo YMCA Tae Kwon Do

What is it that caused you to become an independent school?

I don't think our school has ever been anything other than independent. Or you might consider us multiply-affiliated. We're under Grandmaster Wang H "Bobby" Kim. Geup ranks are through the Moo Duk Kwan. Dan ranks are through either the Moo Duk Kwan or the Kukkiwon, depending on the students preferences.

How does your taekwondo differ from what is taught by the big Orgs, particularly the Kukkiwon/WTF? Please describe what it is that you teach.

We use the Palgwe forms, plus the KKW Yudanja forms, but offset one rank; i.e. Koryo is required for promotion to 1st Dan. There are a couple of us who also practice the Taegeuk and Chang Hon forms. A few more who are beginning to learn the taegeuks. Students who opt for Kukkiwon certification are not required to learn the Taegeuk forms. Our sparring is closer to the ITF ruleset than anything else.

How are your students benfited specifically by your school being independent? If you say that you teach like a drill seargent and run your students until they look like the Spartans from 300, that isn't a result of independent status; that's just your teaching style.

If you want to participate in events sponsored by a given org, then membership may be a requirement. If you expect to move to another area/school, then it could be argued that learning a standardized curriculum is a good thing. On the other hand, if you already know the techniques involved, learning a new form set doesn't really take all that long.

What can you as a school owner do to benefit your school and students that you could not do if you were affiliated with the Kukkiwon/WTF or other large org?
Please do not take this as an opportunity to bash orgs or to debate historicity beyond the scope of this thread. I am interested in factual answers to the above questions and intelligent dialogue.

I don't think there are any large orgs that say "you must teach this and you cannot teach anything OTHER than this" so this is something of a non-issue.

Overall, I'd say that it's the teacher, not the org, that really matters.
 

puunui

Senior Master
Joined
Dec 7, 2010
Messages
4,378
Reaction score
26
the whole Allen Steen line in texas calls the art either TKD or American TKD, depending. the breakdown is, best guess? about 50/50
i took my instructors curriculum, and added to it, i subtracted nothing, so the curriculum is pretty close across the schools in the allen steen lineage here. some slight differences, We all do one steps, but some do different one steps than others. we all do the same kata, the Chong hon set, the original TKD forms. But we might not do them the same exact way. The sparring is different from school to school but i have never seen a school that didnt spar, and that didnt require hard contact in sparring. We use standard open rules. a general rule is no face contact below brown belt level. we use brown and NOT red, generally, but some schools do use red somewhere in the line.


Are you affiliated with GM Keith Yates? If not, is your taekwondo similar to his?
 

Twin Fist

Grandmaster
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
7,185
Reaction score
210
Location
Nacogdoches, Tx
GM Yates is from the Steen line, but our schools are removed to the point that there are many differences. We use the same forms, and his book on the chong hon patterns was a good one (tho i prefere the Hee Il Cho forms books myself) he uses one steps, tho not the same as ours

not a brother, but perhaps a 1st cousin. maybe a step brother
 

Kong Soo Do

IKSDA Director
Supporting Member
Joined
May 17, 2011
Messages
2,419
Reaction score
329
...and who may also love to hate the big orgs, particularly the Kukkiwon/WTF.

If you operate or instruct at an independent school...
  • What is your school called?
  • What is it that caused you to become an independent school?
  • How does your taekwondo differ from what is taught by the big Orgs, particularly the Kukkiwon/WTF? Please describe what it is that you teach.
  • How are your students benfited specifically by your school being independent? If you say that you teach like a drill seargent and run your students until they look like the Spartans from 300, that isn't a result of independent status; that's just your teaching style.
  • What can you as a school owner do to benefit your school and students that you could not do if you were affiliated with the Kukkiwon/WTF or other large org?
Please do not take this as an opportunity to bash orgs or to debate historicity beyond the scope of this thread. I am interested in factual answers to the above questions and intelligent dialogue.

To begin, perhaps 'love to hate' isn't the best label. I would suggest that perhaps some have a differing perspective of the motivations of particular organizations. Next, to specifically answer your question(s);

  • Mu Shin Kwan Kong Soo Do
  • With respect intended, and without trying to offend; Direct and indirect acts of racial discrimination/bias on the part of some seniors of the KKW. Additionally, teaching individuals who were BB's in KKW TKD that did not have the skills necessary (according to our standards) to defend themselves. Again, no offense intended to anyone, speaking upon our specific interactions we had KKW TKD BB's train with us that would not have been able to pass our yellow belt test. Doesn't mean we are superior. We aren't bullet proof. We aren't Ninjas. But we teach something that dramatically different that what they trained in for sporting competitions.
  • What we teach is pure self-defense. Our students come specifically for real-world self defense. Sporting applications are not trained for nor are they desired by our student base.
  • Our students benefited directly from three of the four founders being high liability professionals that have had more real world altercations than they can remember. The training therefore is based upon professional experience rather than theory.
  • Our students aren't even interested in wearing a belt much less joining a foreign or domestic organization that doesn't play a direct role in their training or see them first-hand.
If anything needs further clarification, please ask and I will do my best. Hope this is what you're looking for.
 
OP
D

Daniel Sullivan

Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
May 27, 2008
Messages
6,472
Reaction score
271
Location
Olney, Maryland
To begin, perhaps 'love to hate' isn't the best label. I would suggest that perhaps some have a differing perspective of the motivations of particular organizations.
Absolutely, which is why I said 'may love to hate,' as some do, but most probably don't.

Next, to specifically answer your question(s);
  • Mu Shin Kwan Kong Soo Do
  • With respect intended, and without trying to offend; Direct and indirect acts of racial discrimination/bias on the part of some seniors of the KKW. Additionally, teaching individuals who were BB's in KKW TKD that did not have the skills necessary (according to our standards) to defend themselves. Again, no offense intended to anyone, speaking upon our specific interactions we had KKW TKD BB's train with us that would not have been able to pass our yellow belt test. Doesn't mean we are superior. We aren't bullet proof. We aren't Ninjas. But we teach something that dramatically different that what they trained in for sporting competitions.
  • What we teach is pure self-defense. Our students come specifically for real-world self defense. Sporting applications are not trained for nor are they desired by our student base.
  • Our students benefited directly from three of the four founders being high liability professionals that have had more real world altercations than they can remember. The training therefore is based upon professional experience rather than theory.
  • Our students aren't even interested in wearing a belt much less joining a foreign or domestic organization that doesn't play a direct role in their training or see them first-hand.
If anything needs further clarification, please ask and I will do my best. Hope this is what you're looking for.
I have only two questions regarding the above:

1. Do you consider what you do to be taekwondo?
2. Is Mu Shin Kwan an independent or does the school belong to the IKSDA mentioned in your signature?
 

Kong Soo Do

IKSDA Director
Supporting Member
Joined
May 17, 2011
Messages
2,419
Reaction score
329
Absolutely, which is why I said 'may love to hate,' as some do, but most probably don't.


I have only two questions regarding the above:

1. Do you consider what you do to be taekwondo?
2. Is Mu Shin Kwan an independent or does the school belong to the IKSDA mentioned in your signature?

1. Not anymore. One does not normally associate TKD with locks, throws, chokes, grappling (non-sport), cavity pressing, misplacing the muscle/tendon etc.
2. MSK belongs to the IKSDA. We are simply a group of schools here in the U.S. and Australia that have come together with a common focus, standards and guidelines.
 

Dirty Dog

MT Senior Moderator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2009
Messages
23,355
Reaction score
9,095
Location
Pueblo West, CO
1. Not anymore. One does not normally associate TKD with locks, throws, chokes, grappling (non-sport), cavity pressing, misplacing the muscle/tendon etc.

You don't? While we don't do much along those lines in the Moo Duk Kwan school we attend now, my earliest training was ITF and we certainly did all of those things.
 

Kong Soo Do

IKSDA Director
Supporting Member
Joined
May 17, 2011
Messages
2,419
Reaction score
329
You don't? While we don't do much along those lines in the Moo Duk Kwan school we attend now, my earliest training was ITF and we certainly did all of those things.

We always trained that way as well (locks, chokes, balance displacement etc).
 

puunui

Senior Master
Joined
Dec 7, 2010
Messages
4,378
Reaction score
26
One does not normally associate TKD with locks, throws, chokes, grappling (non-sport), cavity pressing, misplacing the muscle/tendon etc.


One does not associate the art of Kong Soo Do with those types of techniques either.
 
OP
D

Daniel Sullivan

Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
May 27, 2008
Messages
6,472
Reaction score
271
Location
Olney, Maryland
We always trained that way as well (locks, chokes, balance displacement etc).
At my last TKD school, we had a self defense night and did work on locks, chokes, sweeps, unbalancing, etc. along with some basic falling and rolling. It was a fun class. Kukkiwon/WTF school too.

Sparring was the WTF rule set.
 
OP
D

Daniel Sullivan

Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
May 27, 2008
Messages
6,472
Reaction score
271
Location
Olney, Maryland
One does not associate the art of Kong Soo Do with those types of techniques either.
As a general rule, outside of people like us who like to discuss such things, one does not associate Kong Soo Do with anything, as most have never even heard of it.
 

Latest Discussions

Top