So what is this world coming to again?...

[Blotan Hunka]

I interviewed Lt. Col. Grossman in early September for the Standard Democrat just before he addressed faculty at a local school to pitch a program that seeks to reduce violence in youth.

The full article can be found here:

http://news.mywebpal.com:80/news_tool_v2.cfm?pnpid=865&show=archivedetails&ArchiveID=1211424&om=1


Grossman told me that for children ages 2-3 years old, viewing television and movies increases the chance for attention deficit disorders no matter what they are watching.

Some view “violence as vodka, and non-violent stuff as beer,” according to Grossman, with all TV, movies and video games being harmful to some extent.

He has research the indicates that video, TV and movies -- regardless of content -- stimulates certain areas of the brain while reading stimulates others.

The areas stimulated by reading are those that "make us human," Grossman told me.

I don't think it is any one factor, but one thing seems certain to me:

the combination of parents allowing video games, movies and TV to replace them as parents (which indicates less time spent on loving interaction)

+

extremely high volume of video game, movie, TV viewing

+

reduced time spent reading

+

glorification of violent, criminal lifestyles

+

marginalizing and ridiculing traditional Christian beliefs and values


are all combining to result in a list of bad things in our society including, but not limited to, random acts of violence like the incident that started this thread, school shootings, moral relativism and a lack of respect for human life.

Im with that 100%

 

[Drac]

Is it me or are they all WWE fans too?

No it's not just you...The saddest part is when these wangsters go down to the innercity to hang with the homies because they feel they are "brothers" and they ususally get beat up or robbed...

 

[zDom]

Well thought post zDom. One question, explain traditional Christiam beliefs please? Are you inferring that if one does not actively attend church we are harming our children or by traditional beliefs are you inferring to love thy neighbour, be a good person, etc.? Curious, thanks.

I was thinking more along the lines of the latter, but on the other hand, to use an analogy -- how good of a martial artist can we be if we don't train? And where better to train than in a dojo/dojang/gym?

On the other hand, the place to put these Christian principals into practice is out in society, and these beliefs and values can definately be learned other places than in church (at the HOME for starters!), but

children certainly aren't getting much of this in schools today, what with the 10 commandments and prayer being pushed out, neh? They won't get it from TV or movies, generally speaking, and there aren't a whole lot of video games pushing traditional values.

But then, a lot of churches are watering down the traditional messages to bring more people in, going to more of a "prosperity" message and other "make you feel good about yourself" type messages.

I definately believe that, to paraphrase something from the Bible, if you teach children how to live right when they are young, they will not forget it as adults.

On a completely different note, anybody see that Bernie Mac episode in which Bernie decides the kids need "churchin'"?

Final comment: I'm a bit of a hyprocrite as I don't presently attend church on a regular basis (although I got a lot of churchin' growing up). I AM pleased, however, that my parents regularly take my children to church.

I WANT those values to be ingrained, deeply, within my children. Not only because it is good for society as a whole, but because I believe it is good for my children.

 

[heretic888]

children certainly aren't getting much of this in schools today, what with the 10 commandments and prayer being pushed out, neh?

I disagree. Ethical principles such as the Golden Rule are a cornerstone of both primary and elementary school education, at least in my experience.

Furthermore, these aren't specifically "Christian" beliefs. They are common to most religious and philosophical traditions that I am familiar with. It is more appropriate to say they are simply "human" beliefs.

To that end, it is probably more effective (for the most part) if children learn these principles in a secular context. If the child later rejects the metaphysical "baggage" that goes with the ethical principle, he or she may also come to reject the ethical priniciple, as well.

Laterz.

 

[zDom]

I disagree.

I knew you would

But secular contexts are failing us. Don't you think schools, for example, have their hands full just trying to educate children in secular material?

Why not go with a context we know works? Sure, some may reject the ethical principals eventually, but no system provides flawless results.

Just because Christianity doesn't hold exclusive rights to certain beliefs such as the golden rule doesn't mean Christianity is an invalid construct to learn those beliefs and values from. It just reinforces the validity of those beliefs and values.

There are plenty of people, like yourself, that abandon Christianity when they become "more educated." But I'd rather members of my society become "disillusioned" with Christianity as adults than turn into murderers as children.

 

[heretic888]

But secular contexts are failing us.

And you base this claim on what exactly??

Don't you think schools, for example, have their hands full just trying to educate children in secular material?

Yes, which is why they should keep religion out of public classrooms unless it is a subject of elective study approached in an academic manner.

Why not go with a context we know works?

Uhhh... because we don't know that it "works", and just because you subscribe to it doesn't mean it does.

In fact, a number of research studies within the field of social psychology have demonstrated high correlations between traditional Christian belief and prejudice toward others across racial, gender, sexual, political, and religious orientation. Statistically speaking, it apparently does not work.

Sure, some may reject the ethical principals eventually, but no system provides flawless results.

Although it's far from flawless (which would be a perfect positive correlation), there is a very high correlation between transcendental meditation (TM) practice and both moral development (Kohlberg) and ego development (Loevinger).

Just because Christianity doesn't hold exclusive rights to certain beliefs such as the golden rule doesn't mean Christianity is an invalid construct to learn those beliefs and values from.

Actually, yes. It does.

The problem is that you are essentially advocating pushing a religious view onto our children, regardless of what those childrens' parents may or may not want. I wonder if you would be so accepting of such a programe if it was Islam being pushed onto your children??

I needn't point out that, if this were occuring in public schools, it essentially violates the Separation of Church and State and is quite illegal.

There are plenty of people, like yourself, that abandon Christianity when they become "more educated." But I'd rather members of my society become "disillusioned" with Christianity as adults than turn into murderers as children.

Statistically speaking, unless they become pastors, it is much more likely they will become bigots as adults under conservative Christian indoctrination.

Have a good one.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

http://www.lc.org/Resources/myth_of_separation_church_state.html

This country was established upon the assumption that religion was essential to good government. On July 13, 1787, the Continental Congress enacted the Northwest Ordinance, which stated: "Religion, morality and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall be forever encouraged." (1) The First Amendment prohibited the federal government from establishing a religion to which the several states must pay homage. The First Amendment provided assurance that the federal government would not meddle in the affairs of religion within the sovereign states.

In modern times groups like the American Civil Liberties Union and Americans United for Separation of Church and State have attempted to create an environment wherein government and religion are adversaries. Their favorite phrase has been "separation of church and state." These groups have intoned the mantra of "separation of church and state" so long that many people believe the phrase is in the Constitution. In Proverbs Chapter 18, verse 16, the Bible says, "He who states his case first seems right until another comes to challenge him." I'm sure you have seen legal arguments on television where the prosecution argues to the jury that the defendant is guilty. Once the prosecution finishes the opening presentation, you believe that the defendant is guilty. However, after the defense attorney completes the rebuttal presentation of the evidence, you may be confused, or at least you acknowledge that the case is not clear cut

The same is true with the phrase "separation of church and state." The ACLU and the liberal media have touted the phrase so many times that most people believe the phrase is in the Constitution. Nowhere is "separation of church and state" referenced in the Constitution. This phrase was in the former Soviet Union's Constitution, but it has never been part of the United States Constitution

So what did Jefferson mean when he used the "wall" metaphor? Jefferson undoubtedly meant that the First Amendment prohibited the federal Congress from enacting any law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. As the chief executive of the federal government, the President's duty was to carry out the directives of Congress. If Congress had no authority in matters of religion, then neither did the President. Religion was clearly within the jurisdiction of the church and states. As a state legislator, Jefferson saw no problem with proclaiming days of thanksgiving and prayer, and even on one occasion prescribed a penalty to the clergy for failure to abide by these state proclamations. Jefferson believed that the Constitution created a limited government and that the states retained the authority over matters of religion not only through the First Amendment but also through the Tenth Amendment. The federal government had absolutely no jurisdiction over religion, as that matter was left where the Constitution found it, namely with the individual churches and the several states.

In summary, the First Amendment says more about federalism than religious freedom. In other words, the purpose of the First Amendment was to declare that the federal government had absolutely no jurisdiction in matters of religion. It could neither establish a religion, nor prohibit the free exercise of religion. The First Amendment clearly erected a barrier between the federal government and religion on a state level. If a state chose to have no religion, or to have an established religion, the federal government had no jurisdiction one way or the other. This is what Thomas Jefferson meant by the "wall of separation."

The "wall of separation between church and state" phrase as understood by Jefferson was never meant to exclude people of faith from influencing and shaping government. Jefferson would be shocked to learn that his letter has been used as a weapon against religion. He would never countenance such shabby and distorted use of history.

 

[heretic888]

If you want to play the Appeal To Authority game, the following is from this site:

Thomas Jefferson wrote:

- “The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God.”
- “The serious enemies are the priests of the different religious sects to whose spells on the human mind its improvement is ominous.”
- “I join you [John Adams], therefore, in sincere congratulations that this den of the priesthood is at length broken up, and that a Protestant Popedom is no longer to disgrace the American history and character.”
- “In every country and in every age the priest [any and every clergyman] has been hostile to liberty; he is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.”
- “I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition [Christianity] one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded upon fables and mythologies.”
- “His [Calvin's] religion was demonism. If ever man worshiped a false God, he did.”
- “Their [Presbyterian’s] ambition and tyranny would tolerate no rival if they had power.”
- “It is not to be understood that I am with him [Jesus] in all his doctrines. I am a Materialist.”
- “It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself.”
- “If by religion, we are to understand sectarian dogmas, in which no two of them agree, then your [John Adams’] exclamation on that hypothesis is just, ‘that this would be the best of worlds if there were no religion in it’.”
- Christianity neither is, nor ever was apart of the common law. Feb. 10, 1814
- “Christian creeds and doctrines, the clergy's own fatal inventions, through all the ages has made of Christendom a slaughterhouse, and divided it into sects of inextinguishable hatred for one another.” (Letter to Thomas Whittemore, June 5, 1822)

In support of Thomas Paine:

- “No writer has exceeded Paine in ease and familiarity of style, in perspicuity of expression, happiness of elucidation, and in simple and unassuming language.”
- “That you may live long to continue your useful labors, and reap the reward in the thankfulness of nations, is my sincere prayer. Accept the assurances of my high esteem and affectionate attachment.” (letter to Thomas Paine written after publication of Age of Reason)

However, all of this is really besides the point, as the courts have ruled against the teaching of religious viewpoint in public schools outside of the context of the academic study of literature or world religion.

Laterz.

 

[Lisa]

Hey Gentlemen, may I ask a favor, please. Can we get back to the topic at hand which I believe is what caused these children to act the way they do. Teaching of religious view points in school etc., is the topic for another thread, please feel free to start one. Thanks

 

[Lisa]

The children involved in this incident will be sent to our "turnabout program" which was developed to Deliver Help And Consequences To Children Under 12 Who Come in Conflict with the Law.

Article

Does any other state have anything like this instituted to help children under 12? What are the success rates?

 

[Drac]

The "Scared Straight" program had great results..Is it still in operation I wonder??? I'd like to see them take it to the next level and actually lock up the little darlings for a weekend..Put them in Protective Custody to insure their physical safety but let them hear and feel where they are headed if they continue on their present course...

 

[exile]

The "Scared Straight" program had great results..Is it still in operation I wonder??? I'd like to see them take it to the next level and actually lock up the little darlings for a weekend..Put them in Protective Custody to insure their physical safety but let them hear and feel where they are headed if they continue on their present course...

I've read about such programs and seen some statistical evidence that they are highly effective... if they aren't widely implemented they should be... a lot of these kids---not the inner city kids form the urban war zone but the jaded priviledged suburban kids playing at Bloods and Crips---have no clue what it's like inside. How could they?

 

[Drac]

a lot of these kids---not the inner city kids form the urban war zone but the jaded priviledged suburban kids playing at Bloods and Crips---have no clue what it's like inside. How could they?

They see and hear how violence is glorified in the rap videos and think that's how it is..They never show these "heros' getting busted and winding up as "Bubba's Bride"..They never see these tough guys coming into court dressed as the establishment they hate and beg and weep for mercy..

 

[terryl965]

They see and hear how violence is glorified in the rap videos and think that's how it is..They never show these "heros' getting busted and winding up as "Bubba's Bride"..They never see these tough guys coming into court dressed as the establishment they hate and beg and weep for mercy..

Maybe if they did it wouild help some of these lost souls

 

[Drac]

Possibly...Going into the schools had no effect because those chosen to speak to the kids were told what they could and couldn't say..I'd like to see a "lifer" brought in to the schools shackled and cuffed and use the language he is most comfortable with..The English dept would faint but the message would come across....

 

[exile]

Possibly...Going into the schools had no effect because those chosen to speak to the kids were told what they could and couldn't say..I'd like to see a "lifer" brought in to the schools shackled and cuffed and use the language he is most comfortable with..The English dept would faint but the message would come across....

I suspect seeing these destroyed lives in prison---not just a day trip, but a weekend visit---would do more to ram the stupidity and self-destructiveness of that kind of behavior into these kids' bored sense of entitlement than anything else.

The concept that actions have consequences and that you have to live with the consequences of your actions seems to have gone by the wayside in many zones of life. I think of the person who sued---successfully---some restaurant because they tipped some hot coffee into their lap and burned themselves---on the grounds, I think, that the restaurant hadn't given them sufficient warning that the coffee was hot... as though the normal default thing in a restaurant is to serve you cold coffee...

 

[Drac]

I suspect seeing these destroyed lives in prison---not just a day trip, but a weekend visit---would do more to ram the stupidity and self-destructiveness of that kind of behavior into these kids' bored sense of entitlement than anything else

I couldn't agree more...

 

[SFC JeffJ]

I remember when I was in 2nd or 3rd grade, the church we went to would every so often take bibles to the people in the county jail. They often had the various kids groups go along to hand them out. That was an experience.

Jeff

 

[CoryKS]

I remember when I was in 2nd or 3rd grade, the church we went to would every so often take bibles to the people in the county jail. They often had the various kids groups go along to hand them out. That was an experience.

Jeff

LOL! Sounds like a "Scared Straight" program disguised as an act of charity. Parents can always find a way to make you take yer medicine.

 

[SFC JeffJ]

LOL! Sounds like a "Scared Straight" program disguised as an act of charity. Parents can always find a way to make you take yer medicine.

I know I didn't want to end up in there after seeing it!