So what is this world coming to again?...

[Drac]

Jeesh, is the term pyromaniac still in use?

Not for kids, that's a term they use on adults..For kids it's "youthfull offender"...Our law makers really have to sit down and rewrite ALL the juvenile laws..The current laws on the book were written for yesterdays youths..This current batch of juvenile law breakers are WORSE than adults...

 

[Drac]

While on duty today I met a 14 year old male who was wearing on of those court ordered ankle trackers..He was bust for B and E ( breaking and entry) possession and resisting arrest...What a future he has...

 

[Tez3]

Being new to the forum I read all this thread in one go. I found it very interesting, it's something that needs discussing and then action taken. There were a good many ideas on how to deal with these youths, some I think could work, some I'm not so sure about BUT this situation is so serious than almost anything is better than the current 'nothing we can do' attitude authorities seem to take.
Several years ago, I don't know if it was reported in America or not, two 10 year old boys took 4 year old Jamie Bulger out of the shopping centre he was in with his mother. They lead him away, then tortured him unspeakably, sexually too. They battered him, laid him on a railway track so a train could run over him. The two boys never seemed to show any remorse or even understanding of what they did wrong, found guilty in court they were sentenced to secure youth custody. They stayed there till they were 18 a couple of years ago. We assumed that they would then be transferred to an adult prison, they weren't, they were released. Given new names, new lives probably in Australia. The newspapers try to find out where they are but are threatened with court action if they give any details out.
There was a huge amount of discussion at the time about video games, films etc. There's no doubt that films and television influences children, we have white boys living in the Yorkshire countryside here walking around with their jeans hanging around their knees calling each other 'bro' and the girls 'hos' imitating American gangstas! I must admit it's a funny sight but does lead to the question what else are they imitating?

 

[Drac]

One of the black officers I work with remembers the time when uttering the word "Niggah" in ANY form by ANYONE was guaranteed to bring on a butt whipping...

 

[Don Roley]

I have been thinking about it and I would like to pose this question for discussion.

What if there is an evil gene?

Of course, I kind of pulled that term off of a Simpson's cartoon. But what if a certain percent of the population is born without the ability to empathize with others?

Think about it. It is not all that strange to think when you consider that children early on are able to determine that certain things are their's, but only later develop the ability to understand that others have the same ability to own something. Sanow in his book, Inside the Criminal Mind, lists a lot of cases where people who are bad apples can be identified from an early age as well as numerous cases where only one member of a otherwise normal family turns out bad. And Grossman in his book, On Killing, says that there is a small percent of the population that the military does not need to condition to be able to kill other people. And he also points out that it is a natural instinct among all animals to avoid killing members of their species. And then there are stories of people with injuries to their brain who change their ethics.

So maybe some people just are born with brains that lack the ability to empathize with others. Humans do have instincts such as that of love, fear of falling and stuff like that that we are born with. What if the ability to consider what others think and feel is one of these things?

And it seems that there are two ways that society has tried to modify behavior of its bad apples. Either,

A) it uses rewards or punishments to get the people to make a conscious decision to stay within the limits of acceptable behavior. Or,

B) it tries to make a change in the individual to make them rehabilitate themselves to think about others and deal with them with a different philosophy and outlook.

I, for one, am not going to argue that if you can get someone to change themselves (B) it is far, far better than trying to control them through some sort of threat of punishment (A). And in recent decades we have been trying to use this (the second method) more and more. Especially with children when they are still in a state of development.

But what if they just can't do that due to the way they were born?

That would mean that up to now, a certain percent of the population has only been kept in check because they fear the consequences of their actions. Without that fear, there is no way to condition them to modify their behavior. And we have been removing that fear in the early years when people's habits are still in a state of flux.

I believe that we are conditioned like Pavlov's dog a bit more than we would like to admit. We develop habits that guide our behavior. The way we are conditioned, how we are treated and the patterns we fall into during our early years provides the way we will act for the rest of our lives.

A poll in the Asahi Shimbun today caught my eye and started this question I pose to you. 32% of the people responding to a survey about the government's recent proposals to counter bullying said that they felt that bullies felt no sense of guilt. I happen to think that they may be the 32% closest to the situation. I have seen situations where kids have done things and the teachers have tried to get the kids to feel some sort of shame or guilt over what they did and you can tell that it is just not getting through. But that is the only thing the government seems to think they should deal with the problem.

And, it is no coincidence I feel that the number of cases of criminal acts by the kids seem to be increasing.

I think that someone who is born with the ability to empathize with others can be screwed up if they are raised incorrectly. These kids can be turned around. I have also seen kids that no amount of reaching out seems to work. And the scum bags I went to school with all seem to be now behind bars, dead or otherwise not living a productive life in harmony with others.

And I look at the way we are trying to teach the kids now and I have to fear for the future. These kids are being conditioned to think that there is no negative consequences for their actions. If they build up habits based on that, I can only see their behavior getting worse as adults.

 

[Jade Tigress]

But what if a certain percent of the population is born without the ability to empathize with others?

Narcissism is a personality disorder in which the person is unable to empathize with other peoples feelings or emotions. How does a person develop a narcissistic personality disorder? I don't know. Maybe they're born with it.

NPD:

A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy

http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/dsm-iv.html

I think that someone who is born with the ability to empathize with others can be screwed up if they are raised incorrectly.

I agree. And on the flip-side, can someone who does not have the ability to empathize with others, be somewhat "saved" from physically harming others by being raised in the right enviroment?

I personally know someone who is unable to empathize with others. It's quite an odd thing to observe. Fortunately this person was raised in a stable family, but I wonder where he'd be had he not been. As it is, his inability to empathize has been effecting his life negatively for years, and he doesn't even see it. He recognizes the problems he's facing, but is unable to equate his life problems as consequences of his behavior. It has impacted both his home life and his professional life.

But overall, I think more people who are born with the ability to empathize have that destroyed by psychologically abusive childhoods.

 

[exile]

Narcissism is a personality disorder in which the person is unable to empathize with other peoples feelings or emotions. How does a person develop a narcissistic personality disorder? I don't know. Maybe they're born with it.

NPD:
http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/dsm-iv.html



I agree. And on the flip-side, can someone who does not have the ability to empathize with others, be somewhat "saved" from physically harming others by being raised in the right enviroment?

I personally know someone who is unable to empathize with others. It's quite an odd thing to observe. Fortunately this person was raised in a stable family, but I wonder where he'd be had he not been. As it is, his inability to empathize has been effecting his life negatively for years, and he doesn't even see it. He recognizes the problems he's facing, but is unable to equate his life problems as consequences of his behavior. It has impacted both his home life and his professional life.

But overall, I think more people who are born with the ability to empathize have that destroyed by psychologically abusive childhoods.

I agree with both Don and JT's posts, but there's a few more wrinkles in the born-lacking-empathy scenario. It's a bit more complex than just lacking empathy, though I do think that that's the core. But there seem to be different ways to lack empathy, and not all of them lead to the kind of conscienceless destructiveness Don is writing about, and which this thread seems to be most concerned with.

Autism, for example, is regarded by many cognitive psychologists as associated with the lack of a `theory of mind' by the autistic child---that is, autistic children simply do not attribute the same capacity for subjective experience to others which they themselves possess (and are aware that they possess). Other people, in other words, are `black boxes' to them, and are often of little interest, along with other things that they cannot understand. But autistic children, so far as I know, are not especially inclined to violence; actually, passivity is probably far more typical with them. So lack of empathy alone won't do it. It's not enough not to be able to empathize; I think there has to be something still more specific... some lack of an internal check on violent impulses and reactions coupled with failure to empathize (and maybe feeding off it as well).

I recall something from that old book about the daily life of the `soldiers' in organized crime---Wiseguys I think it was titled---whose author made the interesting point that what differentiates these guys---guys like Paulie, Chris and Silvio on The Sopranos, say---is not so much their toughness; often there are other people, `normal' people out there who are much tougher---but their effortless capacity for violence. That's what we seem to be seeing a lot of these days, and the source of that is only partly attributable to a gene for non-empathy, I suspect, though lack of empathy may indeed be a necessary precondition for that capacity. But something else is involved... and again, some of it may come from the kind of desensitization that David Grossman has written so acutely about, based on his own work in designing technology to help induce that desensitization in soldiers. But I can't help feeling that there may be more to it than that---that this `capacity for violence' has its own life and history in people's psychoemotional development...

 

[Lisa]

Interesting thoughts Don, Pam and exile.

I have not much more to add however Don's one statement rings very true to me in my everyday life:

And I look at the way we are trying to teach the kids now and I have to fear for the future. These kids are being conditioned to think that there is no negative consequences for their actions. If they build up habits based on that, I can only see their behavior getting worse as adults.

Working around and with young adults, I see and fear for the future as well and I ask myself: What is it we can do to change this? I remember years back hearing my parents say that about the youth in my day and age, yet, I believe we have turned out alright (at least the majority). Could it be the same for the children of today?

Is it our want and need to do more for our children then our parents did for us coupled by the fact that we tend to "over protect" our kids and then send them into the world without a clue as to how to take care of themselves, let alone how to empathise, respect and help other human beings?

I see this every day and I shake my head. Young adults unable to wash their own clothing, dishes, make their beds or even set an alarm clock or write a cheque. Young adults who have no fear of consequences, who lie, steal, cause trouble, vandalise property, etc. All due to the fact that mom and dad have taken care of EVERYTHING for them and they feel that they DESERVE it all and don't work for anything.

Does all this cause a lack of empathy in our children?

 

[exile]

I see this every day and I shake my head. Young adults unable to wash their own clothing, dishes, make their beds or even set an alarm clock or write a cheque. Young adults who have no fear of consequences, who lie, steal, cause trouble, vandalise property, etc. All due to the fact that mom and dad have taken care of EVERYTHING for them and they feel that they DESERVE it all and don't work for anything.

Does all this cause a lack of empathy in our children?

I think it can contribute, definitely. Those who are built in such a way that empathy will remain forever somewhere over their emotional or cognitive horizons are going to be disconnected permanently from their fellows, but even those who aren't---who have the capacity to connect emotionally and psychologically with others---may not get the experience necessary to `trigger' that capacity, if they live enough of their young lives insulated from consequences. It's like: someone born mute will never utter a sentence in `their' language, but someone born with all their physical requirements for speech in place, but locked in a closet as Genie was for twelve years, without any verbal contact with others, will also never be able to communicate in sentences---they've missed the developmental window and once it's gone, it may well be gone for good. If normal kids do not learn that actions have consequences, often irreversible ones, then at the end of the day the results may be same as if they had been born with a `conscience' chip missing from their circuitry.

This is one reason why the problem is not a simple one...

 

[Rich Parsons]

Interesting thoughts Don, Pam and exile.

I have not much more to add however Don's one statement rings very true to me in my everyday life:



Working around and with young adults, I see and fear for the future as well and I ask myself: What is it we can do to change this? I remember years back hearing my parents say that about the youth in my day and age, yet, I believe we have turned out alright (at least the majority). Could it be the same for the children of today?

Is it our want and need to do more for our children then our parents did for us coupled by the fact that we tend to "over protect" our kids and then send them into the world without a clue as to how to take care of themselves, let alone how to empathise, respect and help other human beings?

I see this every day and I shake my head. Young adults unable to wash their own clothing, dishes, make their beds or even set an alarm clock or write a cheque. Young adults who have no fear of consequences, who lie, steal, cause trouble, vandalise property, etc. All due to the fact that mom and dad have taken care of EVERYTHING for them and they feel that they DESERVE it all and don't work for anything.

Does all this cause a lack of empathy in our children?

Rich at age 9: MMMMOOOOOMMMMMMM My Jeans are dirty.
Mom: I just washed them yesterday and told you to keep them clean for today. We have to go to ...
Rich: Can you wash them please? (* No whine, knowing the mistake I made above *)
Mom: No, but if you hurry you can wash them yourself. Cold water, one scoop of detergent, and put in your other dark clothes as well.
Rich: ** Stunned **
Rich: ** Minutes Later standing in front of the washer ** Mom Can you help me, is it Cold/Cold or Hot/Cold?
Mom: It is Cold/Cold. and put in for medium cycle time.
Rich: Thank you
Rich: ** Some time in the future ** Jeans still damp but I can wear them.

At that time, I was helping in the garden to weed, and would help wash and dry dishes as well. I could also make a sandwich for when I was hungry ** Yummy Peanut Butter and Jelly/Jam **.

It is interesting to see people who cannot wash their clothes or pick up after themselves, because Mom always did it either our of taking care of her children or out of convienence as it was quicker and done right the first time, versus damp or shrunk jeans. Or faded because you used Hot water.

I made a date dinner once (* Yes I was the romantic type *), and I cooked a nice roast and potatoes and carrots and ..., . She was surprised and did not believe me that I could cook. (* When she found out my Mom was in Chemo/Radiation Treatment for Cancer and I was doing what I could to help, even if not always right, she felt sorry that I had to learn how to cook and clean. The point was that I knew before that it just made it easier to experiment. *)

I think it does a disservice to the child if they do not know how to balance a check book (* Something else I learned early in high school - PS I like the way Lisa et al uses Cheque *), cook, clean, run a vacuum, pick up, make a bed, (* Perfect corners and bouncing a quarter not required *), as they are lost later in life. These children grow up get into a relationship or two and move in or get married and find out that no one is around to pick up after them anymore. (* Goes for both males and females *)


But that is my opinion on that subject.

 

[Rich Parsons]

. . . because Mom always did it either our of taking care of her children or out of convienence as it was quicker and done right the first time, . . .

Even though I said Mom in relationship to my story with my Mom, it should have read Mom/Dad .

 

[Drac]

Even though I said Mom in relationship to my story with my Mom, it should have read Mom/Dad .

That too is also a contributing factor...I rarely see Mom & Dads when returning one of these "youthful offenders" home, usually it's just Mom..Now that is not a bad thing as I know a dozen single parents who have done an outstanding job raising their childern...Too many times there is no Mom or Dad but Grandparent..As one told me "His Dad is in jail and I don't know where his Mom is."..

 

[Lisa]

What if there is an evil gene?

Of course, I kind of pulled that term off of a Simpson's cartoon. But what if a certain percent of the population is born without the ability to empathize with others?

But what if they just can't do that due to the way they were born?

I have been thinking more about these particular statements that Don posed, here.

What if that is true?

"Hey, I can't be held responsible for what I do, I was born with the evil gene"

What does our society do with people like that? and what consequences does that have on our legal system? Everyone claiming to have an evil gene, somewhat like everyone claiming to have "temporary insanity"

 

[Jade Tigress]

I have been thinking more about these particular statements that Don posed, here.

What if that is true?

"Hey, I can't be held responsible for what I do, I was born with the evil gene"

What does our society do with people like that? and what consequences does that have on our legal system? Everyone claiming to have an evil gene, somewhat like everyone claiming to have "temporary insanity"

That's a very good yet scary point. People still need to be held accountable for their actions. Even if an "evil gene" existed, we still make our own choices. Some people inherit *addictive* tendencies from their parents. Especially in the area of alcohol. This goes beyond learned behavior. It has been shown that some people, genetically, are predisposed to addictive behaviors. But not all children of alcoholics become alcoholics themselves, even though they have a higher propensity for being such. They choose not to start drinking. I don't think a propensity towards something nullifies our will. The exception would be true insanity, which is rare. And in those cases the person is still removed from society, just placed in the appropriate *holding facility*. I guess a person with an *evil gene* who commits a heinous crime would have no problem fitting in with the prison general population. Their propensity would be toward evil and they chose to act on it.

 

[exile]

That's a very good yet scary point. People still need to be held accountable for their actions. Even if an "evil gene" existed, we still make our own choices. Some people inherit *addictive* tendencies from their parents. Especially in the area of alcohol. This goes beyond learned behavior. It has been shown that some people, genetically, are predisposed to addictive behaviors. But not all children of alcoholics become alcoholics themselves, even though they have a higher propensity for being such. They choose not to start drinking. I don't think a propensity towards something nullifies our will. The exception would be true insanity, which is rare. And in those cases the person is still removed from society, just placed in the appropriate *holding facility*. I guess a person with an *evil gene* who commits a heinous crime would have no problem fitting in with the prison general population. Their propensity would be toward evil and they chose to act on it.

This is exactly right---what genes `for' complex phenomena usually are are actually genes for tendencies. Eye color and hair texture are fairly simple properties and you can get what are in effect single-gene coding for these. And some illnesses, famously Huntington's Disease---the one that shows up intermittently in the Guthrie family---and a few others are like that. But in most cases, when people talk about the genetic basis for, say, diabetes, they're talking about a complex set of properties that gives potential victims some wiggle room: people with even a long line of diabetics in their ancestry can dodge the disease, if they make very careful lifestyle choices and stick to them scrupulously---lots of exercise, whole grains instead of processed flour in their diets, etc. etc. So there's a choice. It's probably the case that even if Don's `evil gene' is real, it actually corresponds to a fairly complex phenomenon that could be partially offset by early experience, as people have already suggested on this thread, and partly by deliberate choice.

This is why it's important for kids to learn that actions have consquences, that cause-and-effect is alive and well at the scale of human behavior and that they will be held accountable for what they choose to do. I know that I'm always tempted to `run interference' for my 9-year-old, but he and all of his age-mates had better learn early that if you don't think before you act, you might wind up being Very Sorry...

 

[Don Roley]

I have been thinking more about these particular statements that Don posed, here.

What if that is true?

"Hey, I can't be held responsible for what I do, I was born with the evil gene"

What does our society do with people like that? and what consequences does that have on our legal system? Everyone claiming to have an evil gene, somewhat like everyone claiming to have "temporary insanity"

I think that people with an evil gene can still understand that what they do is bad and not acceptable to others. So the thing would be to use rewards and punishments to get them to choose to modify their behavior. Instead, we try to get kids to consider their actions and change from the inside and that will not work if they are born a certain way. So instead of sending a kid to their room to think over what they did, take away all the stuff they would play with when they are in there (playstation, etc) and make them sit in a corner to bore them to tears.

 

[Lisa]

Another story from my fair city that makes me shake my head.

What in the hell were these kids thinking??

SICK GAME'

Police have caught three teens who they accuse of playing what Safioles called "some kind of sick game" where they tried to clip the runners with the car's mirrors.
The boys, 16, 16, and 13, were all arrested about 3 a.m. Monday, after allegedly going on another stolen vehicle spree that lasted 11 hours and ended when one of them slammed a stolen Monte Carlo into an East Kildonan light standard while running from the cops. They allegedly stole three vehicles during that spree.

Full Story

I am starting to feel old...I seem to be saying "Kids these days..." a lot more often

 

[Kacey]

Another story from my fair city that makes me shake my head.

What in the hell were these kids thinking??

They weren't thinking... that's kind of the problem. :soapbox:

I am starting to feel old...I seem to be saying "Kids these days..." a lot more often

True... on the other hand, at least it's "kids these days" and not "my kids..." - could be worse (although the way you describe yours, it shouldn't be a problem).

 

[Lisa]

This is the part of the story that gets my blood boiling...

Neither of the other two boys were previously part of the WATSS ranking system, although the 13-year-old was arrested March 5 -- just three days before the Wellington Crescent incident -- for allegedly joyriding in one of two stolen Cadillac Escalades during another high-profile hit-and-run incident in the West End.


That 13-year-old, who stands less than five feet tall, made his first appearance in youth court yesterday, and cried in the prisoner's box while being read his charges, prompting the judge to ask him if he was OK.

Okay? Is he okay? I hope that little **** isn't okay! Crying....sorry if I have no pity for this kid, he was in a car that seriously injured someone!!!!

:rules: There are rules kid, life is full of them and you can't just ignore the ones you want to!!!!!!

 

[shesulsa]

Okay? Is he okay? I hope that little **** isn't okay! Crying....sorry if I have no pity for this kid, he was in a car that seriously injured someone!!!!

:rules: There are rules kid, life is full of them and you can't just ignore the ones you want to!!!!!!

Like I said before ... it's as though some adults are afraid of making the little snots cry or feel bad in any way! THEY SHOULD BE CRYING! THEY SHOULD FEEL BAD!! Maybe they need to meet the Board of Education. :whip: Somebody stop me!

I'm with you, Lisa! RTFM