The Cultural Emsculation of the American Male

[Tgace]

Here we go again..yeah, because the story of the boys being suspended appeard on a "robertson non-approved source" it didnt really happen. Those boys were never suspended, they didnt exist..ignore it. Notice that whenever someone posts a tpoic that "one" cant seem to find an argument against or refute, one always resorts to the "attack the source" routine...

 

[Flatlander]

Which is fine. Now his point is noted for the viewers at home, and the discussion can hopefully go on.

 

[Tgace]

True..sorry. That story does bring up an interesting point. Granted, nothing happens in a vacuum. Columbine enters into the equation, as does this "zero tolerance" policy silliness. But somewhere in there is a kernel of "violent play between boys must be stopped" and with it doors open to all sorts of political, social and sexual ideology.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Here we go again..yeah, because the story of the boys being suspended appeard on a "robertson non-approved source" it didnt really happen. Those boys were never suspended, they didnt exist..ignore it. Notice that whenever someone posts a tpoic that "one" cant seem to find an argument against or refute, one always resorts to the "attack the source" routine...

Come on, Tgrace, you aren't seriously suggesting that robertson engages in backhanded ad hominem attacks on any source he disagrees with to avoid even the discussion of it are you? I mean, that would be disingenuous and I can't really believe that about robertson.

True..sorry. That story does bring up an interesting point. Granted, nothing happens in a vacuum. Columbine enters into the equation, as does this "zero tolerance" policy silliness. But somewhere in there is a kernel of "violent play between boys must be stopped" and with it doors open to all sorts of political, social and sexual ideology.

That's because there is a sociological mindset among the left that simply indoctrinating youth can bring about their vision of the world. They believe that all behavior is learned, so all they have to do is try and teach children NOT to behave in a certain way. For example, they believe that keeping boys from engaging in "violent play" they can end violence. I guess it never occurred to some people that boys just might engage in violent play naturally.

 

[Tgace]

I wonder if little girls playing "Kimpossible" would get the same treatment?

 

[Cryozombie]

I will be happy to start dragging up every single piece of stupidity and hypocrisy on the matter of gender I can find from the Christian right, the Bush government, and Republicans.

This is new, How?

But when arguing these issues, it might be good to support one's arguments with something more substantial and less-biased than Ben Wattenberg's right-wing and conservative interviews, or the Rutherford Institute--which apparently spent ten years pushing Paula Jones' case against Clinton on behalf of a consortium of fundamentalist Christians and right-wing politicians.

Especially when, it looks to me, like the real issue is that men are starting to be expected to grow up and act like adults, and many don't want to.

Yeah man, I agree, totaly. Those 6-8 year olds really need to grow up and act like adults and stop playing at recess damn them.

 

[sgtmac_46]

This is new, How?


Yeah man, I agree, totaly. Those 6-8 year olds really need to grow up and act like adults and stop playing at recess damn them.

lol, yeah those darn immature 6-8 year olds, when are they going to get a job like everyone else.

 

[Tgace]

And contribute to the corrupt capitalistic society that they were born to control....:shrug:

 

[sgtmac_46]

And contribute to the corrupt capitalistic society that they were born to control....:shrug:

I'm sorry, when are those 6-8 year olds going to wake up to a social conscience, it's time they led marches on washington demanding their right to vote and hold public office.

 

[shesulsa]

Mod. Note.
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Georgia Ketchmark
-MT Senior Mod.-

 

[rmcrobertson]

"A sociological mindset among the Left..." would that we were that well organized. Y'all might want to find out what you're talking about ( agood brief intro would be West, "Race Matters") but wotthell.

Again, the difference between the way we argue is in part that you believe I'm being personal when I'm not, and anyone can see that you are indeed being personal, as you tend to use my name when throwing around these silly assertions about what goes on in my head and heart.

It's just a discussion on the Internet, fellas. And I'm better at it than you are, judging by what you've been writing.

 

[Tgace]

So what about those poor boys who were suspended for playing "cops and robberes"??

 

[elder999]

engineering.

[/size][/font] Please don't be offended, but... If I understand this correctly, you are pretty liberal? Wow, I am amazed to hear a liberal speaking openly about such things. The liberal men I know would flagellate themselves for their perceived inequities.
[/size][/font]

Yeah, if being pro-choice, believing that society (not necessarily "the government") has an obligation to help those in need, and that all people are entitled to equal recognition under the law, then yes, in the tradition of my parents, who marched on Selma and Washington before "liberal" became a bad word, then yes-I'm a liberal.

I'm not some neo-communist, anti-capitalist, pro-gun control, Birkenstock wearing, self-falgellating embracer of P.C. cultural diversity.

Nor do I feel emasculated-I'd have thought that my post made that pretty clear. I just think that there's something more insidious in the way that men are being portrayed, and sometimes in the way that we are expected to behave. That the standards for behavior have shifted so much that "boys will be boys" is only associated with excessive violence and date-rape, and, instead of the requisite amount of natural aggression that comes with a male endocrine system, all aggression has come to be viewed as anti-female and anti-social, and in need of medication or other forms of remediation.


I'll also just interject into this conversation that if Ray Romano, or any other male sitcom character, punched, kicked and slapped his wife and mother on that show, NOBODY would think it was funny, but the reverse has somehow become acceptable.

 

[Tgace]

I'll also just interject into this conversation that if Ray Romano, or any other male sitcom character, punched, kicked and slapped his wife and mother on that show, NOBODY would think it was funny, but the reverse has somehow become acceptable.

Hmmm...good point.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Since Sam Keen was several times mentioned as straightforawrd and unequivocal support for this, "men's movement," jazz, I thought y'all might want to read what he actually says, from, "Enlightenment," magazine:

WIE: In Fire in the Belly, you call upon men to undertake a spiritual journey that culminates in "the celebration of a new vision of manhood." What defines this journey, as you see it?

SAM KEEN: Well, a large part of my work is focused on the way in which the myths of a culture shape and inform the way we live, the way we think about ourselves and the way we feel. What I'm doing in Fire in the Belly is dealing with the myth of gender and specifically with the myth of male gender. And you have to understand that when I talk about a spiritual journey in that context, I'm not talking about a total spiritual journey; I'm talking about only one aspect of it. My ultimate message for the men's movement or, as far as that's concerned, the women's movement, with regard to spirituality and gender is: Get over it! Because the spiritual journey starts on the other side of gender.

Now let me say what I mean by that because I think my perspective is different from that of most people. I've got to start with the idea of myth, that a myth is like the software that is inserted into us by the society, by our family. Nature gives us certain hardware. There's male hardware and there's female hardware. But the moment we're born, people start shoving these software disks in, saying, "Here's what a real man is. Here's what it means to be a man. Here's what it means to be an American man," and things like that. That's what gender is. And those gender divisions, for roughly the last four thousand years, have been largely circulating around warfare. The division between men and women has been the division between warriors and nurturers. The male has been artificially conditioned to be tough, to be aggressive, to be hostile, to be willing to either kill or die for the tribe. The most poignant symbol of this, of course, is circumcision, which is a way of saying that to be male is to be wounded and to be willing to be wounded, whereas the female has been conditioned to be the servant of the warriors, the bearer of the children, the nurturer of the society, and in that sense to be inferior to the male. So when we're talking about gender, we're largely talking about injuries that have been done to male persons and female persons in the effort to perpetuate a way of life based upon warfare, aggression, domination and control. And all of that, from the point of view of the life of the spirit, is a mistake. It's this we have to rise above in order to begin to have any notion of what the spirit is.

WIE: Would you say, then, that the spiritual path is the same for men as for women? Or is it different?

SK: I would say it's the same, although it demands that we get over different illusions. The male has got to get over the illusions of manhood, and the woman has to get rid of the illusions of womanhood, to go beyond them, to go beyond the cultural stereotypes that have shaped them and to realize that, at the level of the life of the spirit, there isn't a difference—that it's equally difficult for us to transcend those things, to grind up the whole shadow, to delve into our unconscious and to transcend our conditioning. I think of the life of the spirit, in a sense, as that which begins to emerge on the far side of the mythologies that have shaped and informed us.

The first place I can remember that this question was raised was many, many years ago when Reinhold Niebuhr, the theologian, wrote an essay about pride, about how we have to get over pride because pride is a chief sin. And a woman who must have been one of the first feminist theologians wrote and said, "Wait a minute, that may be true for men. But it's not true for women. Women, by and large, have a problem of low self-esteem, of not having enough pride because that's what the culture has done to them; it says that you're second class." So in that sense, there is a different emotional agenda that attaches to a woman freeing herself and a man freeing himself, just in large terms.

Let me tell you another way in which this topic is talked about that I think will distinguish how I think about it differently from other people. Of course, Western spirituality has until recently been almost exclusively male in its metaphors. The metaphor of "God the Father" is perhaps the strongest example. And Mary Daly came along some twenty-five years ago and said, "This is a big mistake. Talking about God the Father is just a way to smuggle your politics and your sense of male gender superiority into theology." It was like dropping a bombshell into theology because suddenly you realized that these male-biased metaphors really said that "masculine" traits, such as control and reason, were better than "feminine" traits. Like all males, I resisted her stuff in the beginning. Then I began to realize she was absolutely right about it. But the problem is that the feminists then said, "Oh, God the Father. That's right. That's a baaad way to talk. Now, let's talk about God the Mother. Let's talk about the Goddess." Now, I think that Mary Daly should be as critical of that as she has been of the notion of God the Father. We do not begin to get on a spiritual journey until we go beyond the gendered metaphors for God.


Not exactly great support for the whole, "men are oppressed by the women's movement," line of argument...

 

[Marginal]

The male has got to get over the illusions of manhood, and the woman has to get rid of the illusions of womanhood, to go beyond them, to go beyond the cultural stereotypes that have shaped them and to realize that, at the level of the life of the spirit, there isn't a difference.

So he's advocating that... People model themselves after Jakko?

 

[AnimEdge]

I havnt read anything since i posted but i made this lovely shirt for my store, i love it you should check it out:
http://www.cafepress.com/animedge/638100
its greatness i tell you
http://store.animedge.net to get to the main one

 

[Marginal]

The design's gotten fairly positive responses from girls on another forum I linked to 'em.

 

[AnimEdge]

I think its funny, my girlfriend though who owns a boys are stupid shirt doesnt think so though

 

[Marginal]

Here's the comments it drew on the other forum:

"oh wow i got to have one of them"
"Thats really funny "
Someone else replied with lol faces
aaaannnnd...
"Ahh, the mysteries of life."
(Not sure what the last one means.)

All twentysomething and female. Not sure if that makes your ultimate point or not.